[Fred Flick Stone]

Now that I am getting this book, I need to find a way to depict the images. DC wants me to paint, so now I am struggling to find a way to paint the panels. I have scribbled out a few quick samples, and like so many on this forum, I am finding that portraits seem to be the thing I practice with first.

On the page with two images, the first one of the girl is a pencil rendering with washes covering them. THe pencils are more evident in person vs. the scan for some reason. Usually the scanner picks up every little spec on the page, oh well.

The second one is line art, inked, and really transparent washes laid over the lines. Washes do not obliterate the line work so inking first is a good direction. If you need to knock back some shapes, forms or whatever, then add a bit of white to the color and immediately, the white acts as chalk and ghosts out anything laid in dark first. THis approach is reminiscent to Juan Gimenez, Frezzato, Mobeius, etc. It is also very fast. The face took me about a half hour total to complete, including the drawing and inks. I like the look too, but it really doesn't feel like painting to me.

THe old man's face I did last night while talking to my girlfriend on the phone. It took about an hour and a half, including the drawing. This is the way I like to paint, but I do not know if it has much commercial value to it. THe thing I like about this piece besides the spontaneous approach, is that it was painted with two colors, black and white. Four tubes of paint total. I am trying to work with limited palettes to learn to use the full potential of the colors. THis palette was flame red, yellow ochre, ivory black and permanent white. This is similar to the palette Andres Zorn painted with. YOu can get blues, purples, greens, oranges, everything under the spectrum wheel, just harmonious to the palette used. Don't expect the purple to be vibrant, or the greens to be lush. But they can be made. I think this is amazing when you can stretch a color and medium to its fullest.

Blah blah...anyhow, I would love to get some feedback on what you guys think before I expend too much energy in a direction that may not be very solid or appealing. Thank you for your time, I work now...bye

[This message has been edited by Fred Flick Stone (edited November 09, 2000).]

[YourMum]

Wow, Ron! All these are really nice but I like most of the third one. It's something really harmonic on colors and shades but also very dynamic at the same time. Well, I like it most as I said.

Hmm.. I think the first one includes a bit micke's and Joachim's style. Don't know but there is something which gives me that feeling. On the other hand, I don't also know where they have got their style from. I don't want to mess with these things but I just want to say that I like it too.

The second pic is pretty Fred Flick Stone -stylish piece. The linework is wonderful. I like your inking style. It's neat but I love to see the pictures like the third because of oversupply of the inked pictures. *grin* I would really like to learn draw as strong and clear lines as you can. Hmm.. I think that the second picture is some different because of its colors and shading. Those thigns make it liven it up.

So my opinion is that the third one is the best styled in this connection.

Ps. Have you seen my head sketches... I would appreciate if I'll get some ctir and tips from you. My technique sucks a bit. I wanna get a stronger style, lines and shading. Thanks.

-Juha-

[Liquid!]

Personally, I'm with you. I like the old guy on the bottom. I like sort of bigger, splotchier shapes defining form, but that may/is just my personal taste.

As far as commercial appeal goes, I think that will be largely determined by your sense of design, layout, storytelling and overall 'coolness' of your drawings. Not so much by particular techniques used. Maybe doing some of the main compositional parts in this more time consuming technique and 'washing' over backgrounds for speed's sake may be another idea. Sort of like Bisley does, where you often see that he skipped entire panels, due to time constraints.

Hope something in that ramble is useful.

-c

[Sedone]

Well, I don't have that much to say...except congratulations on the comic! You're a damn good artist. I'm glad things are working out for you. Okay, back to work I go.

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sedone's artfolio

[Plop]

Ron, the second and third portraits have the best style in my opinion. Second one looks very much like Alfonzo Azpiri's style of work (Lorna Strip from Heavy Metal) and it�s personally my favorite of all three, very distinct style. Could work great in a comic novel.

Third one looks a lot more crafted; majority of the people would definitely like that style. It�s much more of an illustration than it is a comic drawing.

It might help a great deal to see a page or a couple of panels done in each style to be able to say more accurately how well they work.

This is gonna be one awesome book Can�t wait! Hope you gonna feed us with bits of pieces of its progress while you working on it

[Fred Flick Stone]

YOur Mum-I am just gonna answer like this first get this going...Thanks for the crits, very thoughful observations. I tend to like the third the most, it is a bit bold to try a whole book of this nature, but I might feel inclined to head this way. Although Rinaldo pointed out, and I may have to resort to it, but I might try digital too. They didn't frown against this, so I am going to give that a go too. And yeah, there aren't that many quality painted books out there, and more quality ink wash images, I might have to try making a "as near to a quality book" in the painted look. ANd yeah, I will look at your images here soon.:

Liquid-I totally agree with the observation regarding the commercial appeal. With Keith Geffin writing this thing, I am not too worried that it is going to be action packed, and dynamic. I am going to try a few more images tonight. Thanks for your help.

agent44-I will have a look in just a bit. I have to get a few images finished here at work then I will observe...thanks for your crits, Yeah I wanna paint heavy paint, Cornwell style...


Micke-Yeah the limited paint thing is very good for learning everything about the colors you work with. ANother good limited palette is Ultramarine, burnt sienna, white and black. try that and stretch those colors out too. ANd your stuff you have been posting lately, damn they are good.


Alias-thanks, and hope to see you out here too. DO you have a cell phone, or a place you plan on staying with a phone number? I guess the best way to hook up is to contact you once you have arrived and settled in. I look forward to meeting you guys.

Rinaldo-thank you for the bashing. I need it to make decisions, the more vicsious the better. You have a very keen eye. SInce you are only nineteen, how do you have such a well attuned understanding of art? Have you been involved with it all your life? Have your parents been involved, or someone of your family? Before you posted how old you were a few days ago, I could have sworn you were at least 6-10 years older, already gone to art school. YOu have quite a thorough understanding of the art "philosophy", and you have a very well trained, observant eye. I am astonished at your age...
As for digital, I am going to try a few things out, I just installed Painter 6, oh man I love that program. I can't believe I didn't work with that one sooner. So much can be done with that program. And with Shanes Prisma pen set, oh he did a kick ass job on that plug-in. I hope to post something done with it soon. Still can't keep as smooth control with the wacom pen as I can with a regular pen. SO my outlines are still really shakey.
And try out that limited palette thing, it is a great way to learn your colors quickly, mixing will then be second nature, allowing you more time just to think about the brush strokes...Thanks again, I really respect you observations, no painful jabs here, I live for that shyit

[burn0ut]

okay fred, your awesome , i like the 1st and 3rd picture, the 2nd one just reminds me of thoes old comics.

i really would like to see more of the 1st pictures technique, i like it. but it looks alittle dirty on her.

anyways the fourm wouldnt be what it is without you!!

[Fred Flick Stone]

Sedone, Plop and Burnout, thank you very much. I am taking all this feedback home with me now to get started on another batch of paintings. Thank you again everyone...

[jasonN]

Fred, thanks for posting these pictures. Just by posting them it gives me a lot to consider and think about. I like all the images. Especially the first one.

-Jason

[Rinaldo]

Fred-
I guess I just have a desire to understand. None of my parents were into art (they were nonetheless happy for me to do whatever I wanted). The only member of my family was my Grandmother. who used to paint the birthday and christams cards she gave me. but we never did much art past the 7-8 year old stage. Had no education besides what one gets in HS. Which was pretty much just a place to draw stuff that met the criteria for assessment. we do some basic Illustration in my GD course but mostly "how to lightbox and then colour" sort of thing, heh, based around getting results but not understanding about the process or "why". there was some good information there tho. Haven't been drawing for ages either. about half way through HS there was a friend who did really good manga drawings (he was japanese), I just sort of centered him in my sights and started drawing. I think I got better than him quite a while ago but not until I was out of HS. Done 2 life drawing classes with a very "artsy" teacher. Had given up a few times in the mindset that I would never get anywhere. Got onto Sijun and have found that My learning rate has gone up ten fold. Hehe I suppose the best art education has been people like you and spooge I just have a desire to get better, and an interest in the subject. I've alwasy been interrested in the "why" (never got past that early childhood stage probably ). I read books, observe and evaluate, listen to what people say, and draw all day, every day. And never sit on my ass thinking I'm good enough to stop doing those things. So far it's working and I seem to be getting better.


Mmmmm...sorry to spam your thread with my life story. Paninter 6 = good? I'l have to raid the piggy bank. been meaning to get it for ages.

I really have a lot to thank people like you for. I would be significantly behind in my studies without your information and support.

[Sumaleth]

I find all three images attractive although the one I think I'd be most likely to actually buy if I was flicking through it at the local comic store would be #3. I might also buy #1 although I'd have to see more of it.

#2 definitely has hints of Gimenez and Frezzato, but the coloring only looks Gimenez to me. And I really only like Gimenez for his line work, not his coloring style. (I love Frezzato's color style though)

#3 reminds me a lot of Ross although his style is far less painterly. I like Ross, and I like painterly, so this one sits well. Although the palette isn't too attractive to me.

--

I'd love to see how you'd approach it with oils! Although I think, more than any of the above, I'd love to see a really good graphic novel done in a -painted- style using the digital medium.

Just IMO.

Row.

[Skeezer]

First of all, Fred, what were you thinking?
Definitely picked the wrong career, no skills. haha

What do you mean you just scribbled?

I couldn't help smiling when I thought of you scribbling. Great job, I agree with Rinaldo on the second pic.

The bottom one strikes me as loose, but controled, it has a lot more energy than the first two. I think his expression has a lot to do with it also, the beaming smile. The colors you used fit the subject very well, The image by itself gives you a warm friendly feeling and the yellows and browns compliment the image nicely.

As far as asthetic/commercial value...For a comic book style, it could be a little cleaner, but as far as realism and painstaking rendering...

All I can say is Alex Ross is doing pretty good.

I would include this kind of work in my own collection. Oh, btw, when I said painstaking, I was implying that it would be painstaking for me, because its apparent that its not for you. haha, this kind of incredible work seems to flow from your finger like piss from a race horse. haha.

I'd like to thank you for the time you give to me and everyone else here as far as tips and hints and basically good encouragement. I hope that in my old age I'll still have as much patience as you do. *wink*

in conclusion, yabba dabba doo, you rock.

-Skeez

[agent44]

I'm no expert, but I do like the last one, too. I'm sure your very aware of Alex Ross, and Travis Charest. Their styles are a lot more translucent, which is appealing. But, if you went with a more opaque guachey style it would set yourself apart a little more. It's something that I haven't seen too much at the comic shop.

p.s. could I get you to look at a guache character design I did? I'd really like to see what you think. I'll post it right when I'm done writing this.

[micke]

What? Are you gonna do a comic book?!
Congratulations!

Personally I like all of them.
If i had to pick one it has to be the last one, but i liked the second one too. The way you used the colours in the third makes it look much more alive in a way.
By the way i have to try that palette thing with only four tubes. Sounds exiting.
Hope to see some more stuff from you soon
Mikael

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-Mikael Noguchi-

http://www.katode.org/noguchi/

[This message has been edited by micke (edited November 09, 2000).]

[AliasMoze]

Doh. Fred, those are awesome. I like them all about he same. The girl in the top left looks a little like a Shane Glines drawing.

I too really like the old man. Good work. Hopefully we'll be seeing you soon in the flesh

[Rinaldo]

I was going to ask before how you were going to paint this thing.

All are good. I like the look of the old man. it seems to be the most spontanious of the lot. But I am unsure as to how well it would make the transition to the format you are using. While I think that you would be able to do a much better job than a lot of the "painted" comics out there, they have a particular look that just doesn't sit well with me. it's probably to do with things that are unrelated to the actual technique and more the artist tho. (by painted I mean without lines or pencils)
I love the stuff that Gimenez and co do. But I don't see your pic working in the same way (I've only had serious exposure to Gimenez tho). One of the things that I like about using a wash + some solid lines that aint gonna budge, is that you can go mental with the brush and be very loose (in places). it strikes a nice contrast between the tight and controled lines with the looser brushwork (IMHO). I don't really think that the lines need to be there in your pic. they add a bit to it but I think you are still thinking in terms of painting like the old man. (this is just subjective rambling tho). It looks more like you are painting over the lines, as opposed to letting the line hold up part of the image and the colour hold up part.

The first one is hard to comment on becase the texture is not quite apparent. it looks dirty to my eyes. It doesn't represent your skill to me. If I saw it I would think it good but not "fred good" . Although you are probably interested in the style, as opposed to quality of these particular pics.

But the last one....yes...gold....I love it. I would buy two copies But I'm not sure how it would go in sequential pages where things are real small.
What sort of size are you going to work your finals on? and how big are these?

On the comercial viability thing I don't think that most people know or care what something is done with. the ones that do are most likely to be artists, and they are probably going to agree with you not what is "viable"

Why not digital btw?

Sorry to bash your nice pics Ron. they would all catch my eye and get money out of my wallet . Some more so than others though.
I'm just trying to give harsh comments to be critical.

I am going to try the 4 colours thing tomorrow with any luck. Would the same thing work in Photoshop do you think? if one was to pick four colours, put them on the page and then chuck away the colour picker and swatches? I use too many colours atm.

[Grendel Khan]

Hi Fred, my favorite one is the first ... no, changed my mind, i love the second one ... correction, the third one is the better ... arghh! i can't decide! send me the real thing so i can choose which i like more!

No, seriously, i agree with what most people say, the second and third are the best. In my opinion, the second one could be the more comercial due to it's linework which is what comic readers are used to (at least US readers). I love the painted one, but you might get a lot of comparations with Alex Ross, just do it better than him and you're gold .

I've got to ask this, is it a "work for hire" or a "creator owned" comic? If it's creator owned or you have enough freedom, do something you're going to be proud of and forget comerciality. Paint or draw the greatest story you can and let fate work. If it's good enough, eventually it will pay (or not, looking at today's comic industry you never know ).

Just my 2 cents. Sorry if this seems a mess, damn english...

PD: Will we have to wait more to see some of your storytelling? We already know you're a great painter...

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Bleed the Freak

[This message has been edited by Grendel Khan (edited November 10, 2000).]

[Joachim]

wow, nice faces Fred. I too love them all.
I have no critique, but personally I like the the 3rd on the most.
I love that style of the second one as well, the frezatto, gimenez way, but I agree to what you said yourself, the 3rd one is more "you". And, if you have the chance, wouldn't it be much more fun to do the whole comic in the way you master the best, maybe get famous for not doing it in a more common way
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Joachim's Place

[This message has been edited by Joachim (edited November 10, 2000).]

[Fruitbat]

Ron. I think the third feels the least derivitive and the most natural, so it seems the mostly likely to give you a look that is both polished and unique. Be sure to turn off your expections of what is expected of you...it can be a real hinderance. Good luck.

s.f.

[Eckhardt]

Hi Fred,

the 3rd is the picture!!! I like them all but when I saw the 3one my jaw dropped and I am still sitting here with open mouth admireing your great work.

I need to learn more on how to draw realistic lights from my imagination, I dont know how light behaves. Would you have a good booktip in that direction?

great work
/cheers
Eckhardt

[ceenda]

Fred: These are some really cool renderings!

I had some connection problems and so your pics weren't showing up. Today was the first chance I got to download them.

I'm going to have to be unoriginal and confer that the 3rd guy kicks ass. It just has so much character.



[This message has been edited by ceenda (edited November 10, 2000).]

[Fred Flick Stone]

THanks again the rest of you who posted. I have been really busy today so I haven't had a chance to post anything. But I had a chance to barf after seeing spooges goauche painting.
ANyway, Grendel, this is not a creator owned thing, not yet. I have to get work out there first before I can get involved in that arena, but I definitely plan on pushing my stories forward after this, if it goes over well.
To everyone else, ceenda, Eckhart, fruitbat, Joachim< Skeezer, Sumaleth, thank you for you comments, crits and compliments. I have done a few more paintings, I am going to wait and post everything on Monday. I plan on painting a lot this weekend, and getting all the remaining images finished for the 3D Palette tutorial. It is finally in its completion stages. Yeah, finally...Thanks again everyone, this place is a bigger help than any place or school I have ever been to. Kinda nice to have another place one can call home...

[opticillusion]

I would say a lot if I could, but unfortunately, I am late to the post and therefor would be redundant. But I want to say this though... That your characters are excellent portraits of character. I mean, that each sketch and each face and look conveys a definate mood or simple phrase of understanding. For example: That first image makes me wonder who is this girl? Maybe, what's she looking at? Kind of a half smile, shy looking ponder. The second one portrays a more concerned look. Eyebrow's up a tad, a bit of a frown there but a look of dazzlement perhaps or pride. Then you've got number 3:

That one just makes me smile.

Great work Fred! I look forward to Monday...

[immi]

I think a mix of the 2d and 3d would be in order. I dunno, but I've always like the painted look (no 3) with strong lineart and bold outlines (no 2)
I'd have a go at mixing those two styles together and see what u come up with.

[spooge demon]

Hi Fred,

I can't believe I am saying this, but look at some of the top illustrators from the 60 and 70�s. I have Bill Sienkiwicz sketchbook and he said something that I agree with. You can see hints of this illustrative style in his work, but it is cool, because he learned well from them. He did not ape the technique or style, but he learned what �choices� (Sienkiwicz�s word) they made in what not to paint. They really simplified things to make the design stronger. I think this type of thinking will help you with your comic work.

People like bob peak, Robert heindel and Bernie Fuchs all simplified stuff a lot, and it was all screwed together really tight by flawless drawing.

This is just a thought, nothing really important.