[AliasMoze]

I concur; Spooge, your advice, wisdom, and teachings are greatly appreciated. You are really a class-act, a prime example of how to act and work. Thank-you for taking the time to interact with us.

[Markus]

Craig - that Halo piece...love it...not sure there's enough explosions and fire though...heheh. Thanks too for the additional comments...mucho valuable.

Aliasmoze - I hope you don't think I was belittling Frazetta or Rockwell, or any of the greats; by focusing on the symantics and shallow connotations of "concept artist" vs. "illustrator"...these "big" guys are my heroes--and they did transcend the medium. Choosing to follow your muse into Fine Art isn't a cop-out in my book either - it's just a different path you follow in order to have the life you want. Like Craig and Micke and others have said, when you choose "illustration" or "concept design" or whatever you want to call what you do - a big reason you choose it is to be a problem-solver and collaborate with others. I like that too, hard as it can be sometimes. I'd get bored doing fine-art paintings off in a corner somewhere. So far the good client experiences outweigh the negative ones by quite a bit. I agree that "illustration" can help you grow faster as an artist because it pushes you more, at least it works for me. At the heart of what I was saying was simply that the "big" guys apparently still had to deal with the same things the rest of us do -- at least occasionally...that's it. In hindsite it probably didn't even need to be stated it's so obvious. I'll shut up now and finish my own illos that are due today...more painting less talking.

[AliasMoze]

Everyone please forgive yet another post. I'll make it quick.

Markus, no need to explain yourself. I agree with pretty much of what has been said. I've probably overreacted to what I've misinterpreted. Anyway, it's cool, man. Don't feel the need to stifle any opinions for my sake

[YVerloc]

jeepers!

Just checking in on the discussion. Good grief! This is the biggest flame free thread I've seen in ages.

There's not a lot I can add except my sincere thanks to everyone who contributed their thoughts and opinions. Thanks in particular to you Craig for starting this thread, and sharing your work once again. And for taking the time to share your thoughts with us too. There's more written text from you in this thread than we've seen from you all year, in total! I've always admired your work. But it's a rare provelege to hear you talk about your ideas and your working life as well. Thanks!

Everyone else - wow what a discussion. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts with me. We've all gotten the benefit of the many years of your combined experince to think about and mull over. I wanted answers and I got 'em.

So, a final thought. I agree with the thought that so many of you have expressed - that commercial work isn't really an ideal place for self expression. It' almost a tautology when you think about it. This is my what? 6th post or so, so none of you know me, or anything about me (except that I'm a rabble rouser). I too work professionally, as a concept artist mostly, at a game developer here in Vancouver. So I'm intimately familiar with the realities of life as a professional artist. But like a lot of people here, I really do love the subject matter on which I work every day. I love doing artwork from my imagination. The thing that still bugs me, is that it seems to me that imagination-or-concept-based work is almost by definition commercial. Aside from here at Sijun and some of the concept design forums, where can you go to see spaceship illustrations, for example, that are done for art's sake? That aren't tainted by a marketing department's ani-Midas touch? Where is the artform?

I'm reminded of the english word "aweigh". It's a strange word, in that there's only one thing that can possibly be 'aweigh' - an anchor. Aweigh is when an anchor has been hoisted clear of the bottom. If you shout "sofa's aweigh", it's because you're using a sofa as an anchor, and you've just hauled it off the seabed (or river or lake-bed I guess). How does this relate? When one describes a piece of visual art as an 'illustration', is one, by definition, talking about something that was produced for a client commercially? Is commercial the only thing that an illustration can be? Now - yes, by and large. Does it have to be this way? Will there ever be an outlet and an audience for illustration as a pure artform. Fantasy illustration in particular? I would argue yes, simply from the evidence of my own eyes. One of these days, the 12 year old who joins Sijun as member fifteen thousand will grow up and earn some money. If she earns a lot of it, she may decide to buy some artwork. Do you think she'll buy a Diebenkorn? A Barnett Newman? A Klee? Nope, she'll want to buy a Mullins. I know that for my part, I'm attempting to procure an original from my favorite illustrator, Peter Elson.

Who are the artists, who have contributed to fine art by doing, for lack of a broader term, fantasy illustration? Who didn't do them as commisions, but because it was their principal mode of self expression? I can only think of a handfull: La Lorraine, Turner, Friedrich, Piranesi, Boulee, Dali. Can anyone think of more? As a fan of the artform, I'd love to be able to add Mullins, Lee, Micke, Joachim, /et al/ to the list. I agree that it's unlikely. But I can't shake the feeling that the thing that's going on here at Sijun could be the inception of something new, and perhaps even popular. Heaven forbid, renumerative at some point.

Thanks again all.

cheers
YV

[Magpie]

Oh my.

That's really beatiful Craig!

Guess it paid to visit the boards again.

Ta,

[Neuromanzer]

quote:

---

Originally posted by YVerloc:
I agree with the thought that so many of you have expressed - that commercial work isn't really an ideal place for self expression.

---

It's sad this is how it is. As collective we can maintain our sanity vis-a-vis through personal work, forums like Sijun and other outlets like gallery shows, selling prints. Postin' our work to be critiqued and adored alike.

We just had to deal with Disney clients today and couldn't help but feel how relevant the above quote is. I tried to muster ego-self but to no avail when facing the fact that they're indeed paying clients and one can only jump through their "hoops" so many times.

I think I've some understanding of both sides of issue, since I worked both as a client and a hired gun during my career. Once you had dealings with artists, (including TD's, Animators, programmers) and I dealt with plenty including Mr. Mullins one has better grasp of this relationship, and I must say Craig was a professional and was courteous. But, I also ran into very boisterous and incompetent artists. Example: U ask them for changes or revisions and they question it. As an artist myself (lucky for some) I had to tip-toe around so their egos didn't get bruised and then as a client you're trying to see their POV but it doesn't translate or the idea don't come across, something got lost in translation and no offense to good art if for some reason an idea or concept doesn't telegraph what good is the ad? So, as there as many good and bad companies, there are just as good and bad artists.

Yes, Craig I sell soaps.

Ed--

www.edleeart.com

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: Neuromanzer ]

[Lunatique]

I don't really understand why you guys are talking about these things as if everything is carved in stone.

There are plenty of people who works at some production house(film, games..etc)during the day as(concept artist/animator/TD..etc), but after work or on the weekends, they set aside some time to do their personal artwork.

Sure, work takes so much out of you already, and sometimes you just would rather do something else with your time on the weekends than MORE artwork--even if it is for you personal enjoyment. But to work professionally as a commercial artist was a CHOICE people made. No one was forced into it. If doing personal artwork REALLY meant that much to a person, he/she WILL still draw/paint on the weekends, even after doing it all week for money.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've seen many examples of fellow artists that work during the day as a commercial artist, but does personal art on the side and have an identity as a non-commercial artist as well. They have gallery showings, sell original art..etc, and it's a good balance from doing all the commercial work.

If Craig showed up at Dragon Con, Comic Con, or any other similar conventions with a dozen original paintings, I bet they would be sold out before the show's over. So who says commercial artists can't do their own thing and still make money/get respect? When you are that good, you will have fans, and they WILL buy your original art.

[Lunatique]

BTW, Spooge, I've always wanted to ask you this, but keep forgetting:

Have you ever thought about entering your stuff in the annual Spectrum publication?

[Malachi Maloney]

Well said Luna, I agree with every word.

And Craig, if you want to sell "originals" of your digital work; signed, numbered, limited edition, archival prints can sell for almost as much as original oils if they're done in a really small run and painted by a big name.

Some pioneers in digital art are starting to get people to look at digital "originals" in a whole new way. Check it out.

Food for thought.

Take it easy,
Malachi

[The Fritz]

(dropping to my knees, bowing several times) We are unworthy, we are unworthy!!!

!!--GREAT STUFF--!!

[aColdOldKodiak]

really great thread. I feel a lot more knowledgeable with all the information and insight presented from our field expieranced artists. Thanks

Malachi > Have you seen the results from one of those prints before? It seems interesting, maybe something I'd want to do in the future to have for myself

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: aColdOldKodiak ]

[Malachi Maloney]

Sure have, aColdOldKodiak.

I just got two 20x28 archival prints done on canvas and the print quality is fantastic. I was debating getting giclee or lithos done, but that can get pricey because you have to get a plate made in order to press/push them. I've also read that giclees and lithos aren't truly archival printing methods because they don't use pigment based inks/dyes to print them.

I got each print done on sentinel canvas for just under a hundred bucks each and they're truly museum quality archival prints. Very sweet stuff.

If you're looking into getting some archival prints made, just make sure that the printer is using pigment based colors and that you choose an acid free stock or canvas to print the image on.

I've got one of the two signed prints up on ebay, signed by the subject, Playmate Angela Melini and myself. I'm putting the other one up in an upcoming exhibition I have next month. I'll have to get back to you on how well these types of prints sell, but I can assure you the print quality is absolutely outstanding.

Anyway, enough of my blabbering...

Take it easy,
~M~

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Malachi Maloney ]

[aColdOldKodiak]

Very cool. I'll have to check it out. Thanks for the feedback

[Malachi Maloney]

Anytime.

[delovega2]

Wow. Long thread -- but notably very important. I've been up all night so bear with me.

First of all, Craig >>> thanks for the inspiration throughout the years and for taking the time out to contribute to causes such as this board.

I for one, have sadly not really spent much time contributing to this board in fears of getting flamed or bashed in the wrong way. I believe that alot of great ideas are being brought to this discussion and should be continually brought up to re-enforce our community beliefs and way of doing things.

Right now I myself am caught between the -- do I work for love or money scenario. I am broke so that doesn't help. Yet my art calls to me and says "if you invest your time in me, I will reward you more than any money could give you" -- I believe it, but the call of the money hungry bastards also is there pitch forking me in the back of the head.

So what does one do? Go off and join the circus of angry, zombie like workers in an economy driven market place or ... be one of the scarce few who dare to stand up and let their voices be heard. By that I mean expressing themselves creatively without falling under the pressure of world affairs.

Its a tough game out there. Just to add a little to the discussion about the art directors. I feel that the reason they (art directors) give harsh critisizm or try to pull fast tricks on their artists is because they feel (like many do) that they have a something IMPORTANT to contribute... so by them pushing around their artists they feel they are doing something important, more importantly they feel they are doing their job.

Look at it this way, if someone came up to you and said "I don't think that what you do as an artist is important" -- that wouldn't make you feel very good about what you do. So you have to look at the art directors perspective as being a sort of understandable position. Though, in alot of cases I think they are just plain full of shit.

I haven't had the privillage of working for money, and some part of me says the only reason i'll get into that sort of thing is to sell directly do fans of my work (comics, art, etc.) -- I dont' think i'd ever work for someone else and have them telling me what to do -- I can't stand that.

anyway... I think i'll shut up now.

Oh, but if anyone can give me some real ideas about this dilema i'm in (for love or money) i'd be very appreciative. Thanks.

Comments, hints, suggestions etc... can be sent to delovega AT hotmail dot com.