[jr]

john donald imus is jewish, he's also an idiot. don't worry steven, anyone with half a brain knows diskjockys are victums of lead poisoning and shouldn't be taken seriously, either way people who do take them seriously have no position of power in society.

[Jock McxSporran]

Think about it this way:

Japan is a rich democratic nation, just like the US. Japan is heavily envolved in world trade, just like the US. Japan is predominenty non-Islamic, just like the US. The Japanese have "freedom", just like the US.

Why doesn't anyone hate Japan?

It's because Japan doesn't swan around the planet arrogantly preaching it's morality and waving it's fucking flag telling everyone they are better than everyone else. It's because the Japanese are not actively eroding the culture of every other country in the world (a McDonalds in every High Street anyone?), it's because Japan don't cynically try to intefere in the domestic politics of other countries to further their own domestic propaganda. It's because the Japanese don't have an army and aren't a threat to anyone.

I wonder if the US will have to lose a world war before they wake up and realise why they are so hated, just like the Japanese did.

[faustgfx]

amen to that, jock. amen.

[ceenda]

Jock: Yup.

[Steven Stahlberg]

Japan is smaller.
It has less people.
They happen to speak Japanese (not a world language).
It has less resources.
USA had a headstart on spreading it's culture (starting back in the 1800's when the first migrants thought it sounded like heaven compared to starving to death at home).

Still Japan is managing to spread its culture very well - just not as much as the US yet. When Japanese culture gets more pervasive you'll probably start grumbling about them too. "Look, there's a Genki Sushi in every suburb! Damn Japan!"

And lastly, yes there are many people - specifically in China and Korea - who still dislike Japan for the last time they tried to spread their culture.

If you want to be really scared about culture clash, think of what will happen when 3 or 4 billion chinese become fully industrialized...
for an example of what a mere 6 million chinese can do when let loose in a capitalist society, look at Hong Kong.

I'm not saying all this is good or bad, it just is. It's all unstoppable historical accident, like the Romans occupying Britain, like the Industrial Revolution.

You seem to suggest that USA sends out McDonald's franchises like a general his troops. No, it's the locals who stand in line to buy the franchise. Why? Because it's the most successful in history. Why is it that? Because that particular form of salt + grease + speed happens to appeal to more people. That's capitalism and freedom of choice, not an evil plot. Do you reallly think a few fast food franchises and cool movies are going to kill Scottish (or Finnish, or whatever...) culture?

edit: USA doesn't "swan around the planet arrogantly preaching it's morality and waving it's fucking flag telling everyone they are better than everyone else." This is a stereotype, a myth. For the most part, the average American citizen just doesn't care much for the rest of the world (understandable, the Americas being so huge and varied).

About the US foreign policy, as a whole it's not the reason we have terrorism, but the part of it that concerns Israel. Unfortunate I agree, but it's hard to see what they should have done instead. Left Israel alone, to be swept into the sea?

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: Steven Stahlberg ]

[Akolyte]

Thank you Steven.

[Irfan Yunia]

I think there is too much escapism going on here. I think people who say, “oh lets bomb the hell out if em” are either taking the easy route or simply cant be bothered to find out what’s actually going on in the world. We in the West are all too easily fooled into believing our own propaganda. Our politicians always tell us that it’s “good” versus “evil”. Our foreign policy is always sold to the public as being pure and peaceful. The question must be asked, why is it that so many people are demonstrating against the US attack on Afghanistan.

Are all these people mindless, fanatical terrorists? Or are they just sick and tired of U.S foreign policy. And as I have said previously, objecting to US foreign policy for many people in the Arab world is a matter of life and death.

Its been mentioned a number of times that the average American does not care what happens in the rest of the world. Well I think its time they woke up to what their own government is doing in their name. Pleading ignorance is no defence. Especially when we now know that terrorism abroad in some far distant land can also come home in the deadliest of forms.

I have travelled to a number of Arab and Muslim countries. The people I have come across are far from anti-US. They have a love-hate relationship with America. They love the culture, the fast-food, the movies etc…, what they hate is America’s complete bias towards Israel, at the expense of the Palestinians.

I don’t think it is fair to say that America has no choice regarding Israel, otherwise it will be “swept into the sea” This is bullshit. Yassar Arafat himself stood up in the UN and said three times, “I accept the state of Israel”.

The question the Arab and wider Muslim world ask, is why are they being made to pay for Western guilt regarding the centuries of anti-Semitism suffered by the Jews of Europe, which ultimately culminated in the Holocaust. Anti-Semitism was more or less non-existent in the Arab world pre-1948. As the UN Secretary General said,

quote:

---

"The Jewish people have been victims of anti-Semitism in many parts of the world, and in Europe they were the target of the Holocaust -- the ultimate abomination. This fact must never be forgotten, or diminished...Yet we cannot expect Palestinians to accept this as a reason why the wrongs done to them -- displacement, occupation, blockade, and now extra-judicial killings – should not be ignored."

Kofi Annan,
Secretary General,
United Nations,
August 2001

---

jr, the problem with “with half a brain diskjockys” is that other mother-fuckers with quarter of a brain actually believe them.

The original question asked in this thread was “How to stop terrorism?” Apart from a couple of comments all I have heard is how to kick the shit out of Terrorists. Yep, we can bomb them to kingdom-come, will this make a difference?
We can blow Bin-Ladin and his associates into a million peaces, we can even send all of Afghanistan to Mars and back.

I suppose the actual question I should have asked was, “How do we stop a normal guy, from one day deciding he will become a terrorist?

And yep I have also said this at least 7 times, Unless there is justice, we will have no peace.

And we can start asking our governments and politicians why are the Palestinians being sacrificed for Israel.

[sacrelicious]

Jock, I agree with you, but think about what Japan was doing before the end of World War II: They were attempting to conquer the entire Asian continent, and largely succeeding. Plenty of people disliked them then. Then they got the smack laid down on them and things changed. Maybe it will take the smack getting majorly laid down on the US for everyone to wake up.

Edit: That is, everyone here.

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: sacrelicious ]

[Akolyte]

[rant]

Answer me this, where do you people get off thinking the US gets it's jollies off screwing the world over? I can only imagine what the world would be like, especially the middle east and muslim asia, without our input. Right now, Iraqi forces would be in Kuwait, and most likely occupied 1/3 of the northern portion of Saudi Arabia. That would mean, you wouldn't be driving any gasoline powered vehicles. The Soviet Union would be crippled, but it's backbone still supportive of war. The Muslim Asian countries would be fighting off communistic influence, and China would be ready to kick all of their asses. Korea would be at Civil War and the nuclear threat there would be imminent. Israel would be nearly disintregrated by Palestinian forces and major left wing extremist support from countries like Iraq. Ethnic genocide would be rampant in the Balkans, and the areas integrity would surely collapse and spill into mainland Europe. Just think, if in 1941 we just sat passive while Japan atacked us, and let the Germans keep France, what would you be doing? But oh, I forgot, we're here just to screw you over. And we set up McDonald's to screw you over. And we spread propaganda to screw you over. And we spend billions upon billions of dollars on food and medical supplies for half of the uncivilized world, only to screw them over. Maybe we should be dropping condoms to the ignorant around the world. Why? Because we're screwing you over.

[/rant]

[Jock McxSporran]

No one is suggesting that the US does no good in the world (even accepting that "good" depends entirely on your own point of view). The question in hand is dealing with one particular issue though, and many, many people are of the opinion that this situation is entirely of the US's own making. The fact that the US government is pathologically incapable of accepting resposnsibilty for it's actions (as are it's people seemingly), only makes matters worse. We all have to live on this planet, and it's fucking annoying when a half-wit inbred like your fucking president is the man making decisions that will affect all of us.

That said, you have to understand that while I may be anti-American, if anything I hold my own country in even more contempt. Don't take it so personally.

[Of Topic Rant]
And please don't start with that "you should be greatful for what we did in the war" bullshit. The US never declared war on anybody, and it never would have done if Germany and Japan hadn't declared war on it first. Russia won the war in Europe, Russia took more casualties than all the other Allies combined, and Russia would have taken Berlin whether the US had entered the war or not. If I was going to feel greatful to anybody for something that happened 30 years before I was born in another country (which I am not), then I would be turning East and saying "Spasibo" to the Russians rather than "thanks" to the yanks. That I should somehow feel greatful to people who, like me, weren't even born then just because of their nationality is even more laughable.
[/Off Topic Rant]

This is getting ugly now though, and I don't have any desire to fall out with anyone over politics, so I am going to shut my trap and leave the discussion to people who are better able to hold their temper.

It's been interesting though.

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: Jock McxSporran ]

[Darklighter]

aight Akolyte, let's look at your rant closer:

Answer me this, where do you people get off thinking the US gets it's jollies off screwing the world over? I can only imagine what the world would be like, especially the middle east and muslim asia, without our input.

Input.... nice choice of words, let's look at U.S. input:

Right now, Iraqi forces would be in Kuwait, and most likely occupied 1/3 of the northern portion of Saudi Arabia. That would mean, you wouldn't be driving any gasoline powered vehicles.

well, wee, the U.S. was responsible for getting Hussein into power in the late 70's.... but did anyone care about his troops butchering Kurds and anyone who spoke out against him? well, no, but when he stepped outta line and attacked the all-mighty *gasp* oil supplies.... Oil over human lives, now that's priorities!

The Soviet Union would be crippled, but it's backbone still supportive of war.

isn't that the way it is now?

The Muslim Asian countries would be fighting off communistic influence, and China would be ready to kick all of their asses.

indeed, and why let China kick their asses when the U.S. can?

Korea would be at Civil War and the nuclear threat there would be imminent.

once again, possible, but shit happens, we come back to the "policing the globe so we come out on top" theory....

Israel would be nearly disintregrated by Palestinian forces and major left wing extremist support from countries like Iraq.

I've pretty much lost all respect for the Israelian regime, the land BELONGS to the Palestinians and they don't even wonna share their holy ground.... so it was cool for the pal. to hand over their land, but if they wonna visit the holy temple, they can go f themselves....


Ethnic genocide would be rampant in the Balkans, and the areas integrity would surely collapse and spill into mainland Europe. Just think, if in 1941 we just sat passive while Japan atacked us, and let the Germans keep France, what would you be doing?

argh, don't make me get into WW2 too....

But oh, I forgot, we're here just to screw you over. And we set up McDonald's to screw you over. And we spread propaganda to screw you over. And we spend billions upon billions of dollars on food and medical supplies for half of the uncivilized world, only to screw them over. Maybe we should be dropping condoms to the ignorant around the world. Why? Because we're screwing you over.

sarcasm, but some of the points are true.... propaganda sure is, have you watched any of the major news channels and/or read some of the major newspapers lately? It's pretty much sensationalism, try to find one topic to fuss over for months so we can just ignore everything else that's going on.... i.e.: Monica Lewinski (who gave a flying fuck about her?), Elian Gonzales (wtf was that all about, i mean, yeah, that shit is tragic, but if the u.s. would just lift their retarded embargo on cuba and send in their "precious aid" as you call it, maybe people would be able to live better lives over there) *shrug*
aid... billions and billions indeed, Israel and Columbia are on top of that list... like i said in the "America the Beautiful" thread, they call it aid, i call it "protecting interest" with tax-payers money while corporations/politicians can make more and more in that area.... most "uncivilized" countries as you call them spend most of their money paying back interest on loans they got from the World Bank.... they pay back INTEREST while their people starve and die of aids with NO aid at all.... now that's some good fuckin'aid....

i'm not saying the u.s. is a complete piece-of-shit country (even though it might seem that way to me sometimes), money just matters way too much to the people in power.... and they'll do anything to protect their money.... that's why i love the green party's idea of a "maximum income," they think that money-addicts are more dangerous than drug-addicts, it just becomes an obsession, you want more, and more, and more, and more, no matter how you get it.... sweatshops all over asia and south america, fuck environmental laws, the ozone isn't a problem remember? i could list so much shit that dhabih would run out of space on his host.... i'm done for now, don't start flaming me.... i've lived in Los Angeles for the last 6 years and have met the coolest people in this country, it's not an all-evil place.... just most people that run this country are.... =\ you can't seriously fuckin'argue with me about the "choice" you have about who becomes president.... Gore and Bush, well fuckidefuck, FREEDOM of choice to its fullest, haha, we have to protect that freedom, let's go bomb afghanistan for no fuckin'reason at all.... and that's all that's on the news now, doesn't fuckin'matter that more palestinians have been killed in the last month than in the last couple of years, the media doesn't have to report that.... #$(*$@() aight, i'm done

[Akolyte]

Okay, I will shut up now, and obviously people here are older and have more intellect than I can gather at the moment, lol. I can see many of your points, and I thank you for explaining your sides. I still am baffled at this whole atmosphere non-Americans portray sometimes, and it makes me sick as hell inside, because it's my home. But I probably make you guys sick as hell too, with the pro-American crap I am spewing. So, all grudges aside, I understand where your guys' views are coming from, and respect them. Hopefully I haven't offended TOO many people here

[starfish]

Irfan Yunia,

I don't know if this counts but I think
the idea is really promising:
Time to bury the dinosaur.

take care

[Steven Stahlberg]

quote:

---

I don’t think it is fair to say that America has no choice regarding Israel, otherwise it will be “swept into the sea” This is bullshit. Yassar Arafat himself stood up in the UN and said three times, “I accept the state of Israel”.

---

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I meant in the sixties. Yes, USA may have *some* choice in the matter today, but it didn't have much of a choice back then.

[Darklighter]

Akolyte: It's all good man, patriotism isn't a bad thing, it's just that too many americans blindly believe and follow.... the current situation is a perfect example.... oh well, fuck it...

Watch this video, it's pretty intense and straight to the point....

[thundercracker]

no matter how much balls the US has they wouldnt go nuke concidering how close afganistan is to other countries that we get most of our oil from (unless you think ridding oil is a good thing for the world)

and as long as theres differnt cultures and countires there'll all way be different thoughts and ideas that wont get along with each other and there'll always be people who'll go to the exteams to make a point. so you cant stop terrorism

and that thing about japan...they do have an army they just cant use it. only for defence so they cant go overseas to fight which was part of a treaty they signed with the US after WWII. japan is what it is today because of the US helping rebuild it. the US and allies learned after WWI that if you just leave a defeated enemy for dead with no help at all they'll just end up really hating you and the world and start WWII*hitler*

[travis travis]

tell you one thing you don't do with terrorists (i.e. - insane people) you don't say that you are having the first War of this century with them and open the fuckin floodgates - anthrax anyone?

Bin Laden could have been taken out without "war". And terrorism is not an actual entity that can be defeated.

[roundeye]

A. theyre not 'insane', not by a long shot.
B. not the first war.
C. the 'anthrax' is local.
D. bin laden is meerly a suspect. at best he indirectly funded and may have been privy to the plans. at worst hes a scape goat.
E. No. you tried allready before the 11th. you failed.
F. BINGO!

[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: roundeye ]

[burn0ut]

not insane.. just brainwashed.

[Darklighter]

funny, "brainwashed" is exactly what i was thinking when i saw 1000's of people standing in line to buy a flag.

"fuck yeah, i support my country, even though it's what brought this onto us in the first place!"

"You've been living in a dreamworld Neo."

[burn0ut]

oh really, that is funny, i was thinking of people just being patriotic.

Nobody was forced to go buy a flag.

[roundeye]

and no one was forced to blow up your buildings.

you call them brainwashed, they call you brainwashed. the difference?

[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: roundeye ]

[burn0ut]

there was prolly canadian companys or just canadians in the world trade centers, so would they not be yours also?

a former al-gayda member said there was brainwashing going on in there camps. thats what i was saying.

[roundeye]

yeah, lots of canadians died in the attack. they were merely collateral damage though.

im just saying 'brainwashing' is a matter of perspective.

[Irfan Yunia]

I don’t understand why people seem to think it is not possible to be patriotic and at the same time question our leaders policies and decisions. The two are not mutually exclusive. I always thought this is what living in a democracy is all about; to part-take in the decisions of our nation. To be able to question our leaders, without intimidation or vilification is what separates the democratic from the undemocratic.

Yes at a time of war, things change, but it is possible to have real concerns regarding actions, which are taken in our name. I don’t think people should be apologetic for being patriotic. Far from it, I believe one way of showing real patriotism is by questioning the actions of those whom we have elected to represent us. They speak for us. There is nothing more democratic than the ability of an ordinary citizen to question and ask for clarification of policies and actions taken in our name.

-------------

Steven;
I'm sorry I don’t accept the argument that Western powers had no choice but to look the other way while Israel crushed the Palestinians. They had the choice not to turn the Palestinian homeland into Israel. Israel is a creation of Western powers, mainly US and UK, out of sympathy for the suffering of European Jews.

The question to ask is why did the Palestinians have to bear the brunt of European guilt. The holocaust took place in Christian Europe. Not in the Muslim Middle East. Hitler was a German, not a Palestinian. So why did the Palestinians have to pay the price of Israel.

The creation of the State of Israel was a mistake, and a great injustice. If the Europeans felt guilty for their own centuries on anti-Semitism why did they not give a slice of Europe for the Jewish homeland. And the same goes for the Americans. I would have carved us defeated Germany and given the Jews at least half to the Jews.

So it comes down to this. Are you prepared to give up your own home for Israel? I don’t think the Palestinians were. And I don’t think you would be either.

That’s why many Arab counties declared war on Israel the day it was created. Because it was founded on Arab land. Arabs and Muslims from other countries also fought with the UK and US in WW2. And this is how they were repaid. So please forgive me if I don’t hold my breath in anticipation of a just and lasting settlement, as we are hearing these days. Because we have heard it all before.

Many religious Jews consider it a crime for the state of Israel to be created before the coming of the messiah. Because according to them only the Messiah can create the state of Israel. (I'm probably way out of my depth here, but that is what a number of religious Jews have told me on some ant-Zionist demonstrations I have been on).

As one Jewish colleague told me, "its done, it was wrong, but we can't do anything about it now". So we can't do anything about the millions of displaced Palestinians refugees. We can't do anything about the increasing number of illegal settlements. We can't do anything about the military occupation, the extra-judicial executions etc.

I believe we can do something about this. If we can go hunt a mass murderer in the mountains of Afghanistan then surely we can give the Palestinians a just and lasting peace.

Because if we don’t, the Palestinian cause will always be a rallying cry for every tin-pot dictator in the region. And remember without justice we won't have peace.

[travis travis]

"A. theyre not 'insane', not by a long shot."

well in most cases, not bouncing off the walls -- but certainly crumpled up enough inside to go through with an insane plan.

anyway, I'm not talking directly about Bin Laden and the gang, what I really mean is that Bush's moronic phraseology opens the door wide for this sort of thing - so that any nut that feels like it, will not only feel like it now, but feel compelled to do it given this juicy opening - the government declaring a 'war' - so if they want to go after terrorist cells then they should have just fucking done it - not make it understood that terrorism in the US is the new type of warfare, great lets give all the misfits in the world something to rally round. The US is basically taking the position that 911 was a gateway, instead of restoring stability. And I'm not saying the US is the right as might superpower, simply that we are so goddamn stupid.

[sacrelicious]

I just want to say, Irfan, the more I hear what you have to say, the more I agree with you. I wish more of our world leaders were possessed of such wisdom and sense of true justice.

[Poxin]

Fact:

The united states government is the worlds largest most powerful terrorist orginization. They have killed millions apon millions in the name of peace and freedom. (oh the irony)

This is not a war on terrorism but an attempt to spark a decaying economy based on and around oil. Hey! oil? isn't there alot of that stuff in the middle east? hmmm... hey wait! that's where those silly terrorists come from!

The United States can bomb the hell out of poor and starving people claming it's to protect the free world. If they drop crates of supplies (which get stolen from the people by the taliban anyway) their praised for their humanitarian efforts.

They kill and imprison their own citizins over marijuana. A drug that has not caused one case of death EVER. In fact through it's medical uses it has actualy saved lives.

They ignore enviromental issues caused by patrolium products while other alternate fuels await (hydrogen) because at this time oil is more profitable.

Supported and praised for terrorizing innocent people and the enviroment. Unable to change, causing others to suffer. God bless America!

[Poxin]

How to stop terroism. learn from our mistakes and embrace change.

War will not solve anything. Even if it's in the name of peace.

Peace makes peace. War makes war.

I have no more to say.

[Freddio]

Facts?

please justify your statements with reliable sources figures. Much of what you say is probably true, but you should backup your wild statements to give them substance.

They really kill people for Marijuana use in the US? thats tough..

Call this a fight against terrorism, but really all it is a fight for Revenge... which is justifiable.

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: Freddio ]