[Egg Beater]

I was so happy to wake up this morning to find out they had caught the snipers. Fucking animals. I hope they're put to death promptly. What horror they caused -- my aunt lives in Washington.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/South/10/24/sniper.shootings/index.html

[Gort]

Wait for charges to be filed before celebrating. It seems to me that these guys are the ones responsible - I'd be surprised if they were not, but I am not counting on it till there's an official announcement; hopefully that will be very soon - today perhaps.

[Frost]

I feel like mentionning the words "death" and "penalty" in the same phrase, but that might get a lot of hippies angry. (Understood of course, that there is proof of identity as being the sniper).

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Frost ]

[Effigy]

There isn't much point in people like you, or us, crying out for the death penalty. Who are we to dish out decisions on whether people should die or not. Unless of course you like saying things like "kill them as soon as possible", just to make yourself feel good.

I'm not saying I don't think these people should be killed, but I don't think we should be so quick to warrant someones life being taken.

Flower power!

Umm, forget that last comment

[Shadow-X-]

K, after hearing about the arrests of the two suspects when I woke up this morning, I definitely wanted to read more about it once I got home from school. And now, after reading about 4~5 different articles on CNN, this topic is quite a thought provoker.

I dont mean to offend anyone, but evidence is surely the only way to catch the real perpatrator(s).
The inevitable "what if?" question pops up. You do have to think that. There is always (emphasis on ALWAYS) a second side to a story. What if these 2 men are not the alleged 'terrorists'? I mean, what the police have found out is already pretty convincing enough. BUT, there are cases when they (the police) manipulate evidence, or change facts to get their way. I'm not in any way saying that the washington sniper case taskforce has done so. But as always, concrete evidence will be needed to pinpoint that these men did the horrific atrocity that has happened within the past few weeks. For example, they have been tracing all the bullets to this sniper, so they might as well (and im sure they will), test the rifle they found in the car to make sure the grooves match the bullets that were found at the murder sites. (damn, this little blurb of mine is really making me want to be a forensic scientist sooooo much more.....)

As for the death penalty, I'm still iffy on that one. Being a Canadian, we do not have the death penalty. I know only 1 or 2 states have it still, and when we get into discussion about it in class, there is always some heat packed into it. In my views, I cannot say whether or not someone should die. Does it justify to kill one person just because they killed others? Would it make you feel better that you have rid the person(s) who had done the crime? How does it stop any other potential murderers from stopping what they want to do? The 'insane' people are not going to be discourraged from any penalty that they may receive, they feel invincible when they do a crime, that is why they do it. Pleasure of some sort.

The one thing that really just sticks out right now is : What if these people arent the real killers? What if more people are killed, and more messages from the sniper(s) are received?

I'll be honest (you dont have to agree), but I thought that the perpatrator(s) was very smart over this whole ordeal. They knew that the randomness of the act would confuse the police. They most likely knew not to make any patterns in their killing spree, and if they did, they would get caught. Now one thing that would boggle my mind (and a lot of others), is that if the police did NOT catch the real sniper(s). I respect him for his knowledge (the sniper), but not for his act.

Just my two cents.

So any flaming responses? bring it on.

[Gort]

At the time of this post both suspects are being arraigned on charges. We can celebrate that these worthless scumbag motherfucking sonsofbitches catfucking shitholes scourge of civilized behavior are off the street.

So maybe it might make "me feel good", but if I learned that they both vaporized or ceased to exist in any way, I would feel nothing for them. I might not celebrate or call for their death, but I certainly wouldn't feel anything at all for them or their families if they both just died. Motherfuckers.

[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Tom Carter ]

[Sukhoi]

Excactly. People like them DESERVE to die. But morally it isn't our choice weather or not they live, and it's just wrong having "the state" do it for you. Wich is in fact what is happenig when people are sentenced to death.

Sukhoi

[Giant Hamster]

Bwahahahaha!

[edraket]

If these are the guys it would be a great relief. It just showes that good will always prevail. *cough*

I love how these threads change direction as soon as something politically charged is mentioned.
I can't say that I really want go into an argument about death penalty though. It's part of american culture... one of those parts I just don't get. No point in arguing.

All I would wanna say would be a sentence with the words "gun" and "control" in it.

[Egg Beater]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shadow-X-:
As for the death penalty, I'm still iffy on that one. Being a Canadian, we do not have the death penalty. I know only 1 or 2 states have it still

---

Actually, only 12 US states don't have the death penalty. Most of your post is misinformed, actually. I'm not gonna pick on you any further, however. But when speaking about an issue as serious as the death penalty, you should refrain from doing it from your ass.

[Effigy]

aren't arguments great through computers?

[J Bradford]

For fucks sake, lock him in a room with the victims family and see what they decide.

[-HoodZ-]

yeah let the families decide....from there say goodbye to those two...f' em

[Shadow-X-]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Egg Beater:
Actually, only 12 US states don't have the death penalty. Most of your post is misinformed, actually. I'm not gonna pick on you any further, however. But when speaking about an issue as serious as the death penalty, you should refrain from doing it from your ass.

---

The fact that Canada doesnt have a death penalty does not mean I should know every fact about it for places that do. From my previous knowledge, I thought the count was down to 2 (KY and somewhere else). Mind you, Politics and economics do not really interest me at all.
But what I think of the death penalty is pretty much the same as others. I am not making a joke of this topic.

[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Shadow-X- ]

[Egg Beater]

I apologize, Shadow. I was harsh. It truly does bother me though, when someone argues apparent hard facts, that are in reality, almost completely opposite from the truth. Especially with a subject as serious as this.

Also, the fact that you're Canadian isn't justification for basing mature debate on nonsense. I'm also Canadian, if you'll notice.

[Rat]

I don't believe in the death penalty. I also (unless there's been some sort of revelation since yesterday morning) don't think anyone should begin to condemn these people until a confession is given. Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty*"? Yes, they should be held until a verdict is given, or until someone else is killed by the "sniper" (though they may just wait until the current suspects have been killed, considering no jury will give them anything less than death), but no, they shouldn't be prematurely condemned.

(NOTE: I haven't watched the news/read the news, so I may be misinformed on their status of guilt.)

*"innocent until proven guilty"...I interpret that as "proven beyond all reasonable doubt". There's still reasonable doubt.

[Max]

quote

Quote:

People like them DESERVE to die

quote

Quote:

yeah let the families decide....from there say goodbye to those two...f' em

NOBODY DESERVES TO DIE !!!!!!!!!!!!
Not any random victims and and not murders.
You never can solve a problem by killing people. NEVER
And if it's done by the state or by an single man doesn't make any differences.
Kiling is not justified. NEVER
Between: you do not know if they are guiltily.
You know how many people had to die for acts they haven't done.
And: why people do such crazy things. There must be a reason for this.
Especially if it was an terror attack.
Think of it.......

- max

[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Max Kulich ]

[Max]

people kill people because they are murders

no sense !

I don't have to give any arguments for not killing people.
It's just not okay to kill living beings and you know that!

( Im sorry for my bad english. Maybe you misunderstand something or my spelling is just too bad to tell you what I mean - ok. it's my spelling )

[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Max Kulich ]

[Gort]

I think that perhaps I was looking for a more deeper answer or meaning. Perhaps your answer might be better suited if directed towards the sanctity of life and the relative value of conscious perception.

It's very easy for those of us without any real exposure to the the pain of violent death to gravitate towards a stance against capital punishment. What if it were one of the closest people you knew and deeply loved that were just struck down by the hand of another in a cold, calculated and indiscriminate way? How would really feel? The challenge is to meditate on it and see if you can pass your own test as defined by your belief. Should this killer be allowed to sit in the solice of a cell for the rest of their life? They will be fed; they will have some exercise; they will be still know the cycles of the sun and moon and feel fresh air from time to time. Is that fair? What about a life spent in intense labor and uncomfort? Doesn't that violate the sanctity of existence as well as much as death?

What penalty might those opposed to death like to see? What do you honestly think is just for these men - assuming that they are indeed guilty?

[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Tom Carter ]

[Sukhoi]

Interesting Tom.

You must however, remember that judgement based on the feelings of the families of the victims aren't always rational. Or within the constraints of what's right even. As seen from my point of view.

Sukhoi

[Egg Beater]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rat:
*"innocent until proven guilty"...I interpret that as "proven beyond all reasonable doubt". There's still reasonable doubt.

---

Are you kidding me? Have you been watching the news? You can honestly say you still have reasonable doubt about these two?

[Rat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Egg Beater:
Are you kidding me? Have you been watching the news? You can honestly say you still have reasonable doubt about these two?

---

Yes. I think I mentioned that I've not been watching the news. There's really no point, all they do is institute fear and blow situations (even this one) way out of proportion.

I try to be as unbiased as I can. There is reasonable doubt, as there hasn't been any confession as of yet, and I personally haven't seen any evidence proving beyond reasonable doubt that these men are guilty.

[Gort]

quote

Quote:

You must however, remember that judgement based on the feelings of the families of the victims aren't always rational.

Yes, Sukhoi - I agree with you on that, but then how should the rational mind handle such atrocities? Are we to be torn between compassion for those who have had their immediate family member taken from them or for the individual that has wantingly placed their own motivations above the most precious thing on earth - life? How do we make these judgements? I agree that acting upon emotion can often be an irrational act in itself, but what justice is truly warranted? To those that hold and recognize the sanctity of life - what justice is fair?

[Sukhoi]

Yup, I guess you can say that by taking life you instantly loose all 'rights' regarding your own. That's fair.
When one looks at things in pure black and white, at least.

I just can't help thinking of all the paths a life can take, and the old Ben Kenobi quote: "....a lot of things depend on your own point of view" (sorry).
Who, anywhere and at what given time are of such a clear mind and state of 'purity' that they can sentence another person to death?

I don't think it's possible.

What are we talking about now?

Sukhoi

[Akolyte]

Remove his extremities. Let him live. A self contained torso. Requires less food.

[Drew]

*cuts and pastes, leaving a few sentences out*
>You never can solve a problem by killing >people. NEVER
>Kiling is not justified. NEVER

This entire thread is about a problem that can be solved by killing, provided the right person is killed.

And although to you it may not be justifiable to kill, even when your life is at stake, to me it is quite justifiable. I don't want to ever have to make the decision to kill someone who I think is trying to kill or seriously harm me, but if it comes to that then I hope I'll be able to do it. I'm sure it will be the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life, and it's a horrible thing. But I would choose it over dying, or letting any innocent person die.

As for gun control, that's an entirely different topic. Since everyone's mind is already made up on that one, I'll leave it alone. :-)

[Egg Beater]

Okay Rat,

So, the car they were found in was modified for "sniping", the gun they were found with was linked with ballistic tests to the murders the snipers committed, both men are wanted for murder in other states as well, a scope was found in the car, etc.

It's one thing to be against the death penalty, it is another thing to be willingly blind to justice simply because you're trying to be some sort of role model for someone.

[ReAktor]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Egg Beater:
Are you kidding me? Have you been watching the news? You can honestly say you still have reasonable doubt about these two?

---

Well, what if I would be able to produce News-broadcasts that would show that YOU are the sniper. People would believe it because people always believe what they see. Hypothetically: Would you want anyone wishing you to die because of this? Nope?

If there is one thing I learned from my years with computer graphics, it is: Never believe anything unless you have seen it with your own eyes. Ok, most of the time I watch News bulletins and accept them. But I would never, I repeat: NEVER depend a life on it.

Btw: Thats a lesson I have also learned from my own country�s history... Propaganda has many faces: Just be aware.

A last word: If your ethics do not tell you that every single intelligent life is worth more than everything else on earth then you are not better than that sniper


ReAktor

[Steelwind]

quote

Quote:

You never can solve a problem by killing people. NEVER

It can keep them from doing it again. IMHO, that's the point of the death penalty. Not punishment, not deterring others, just taking a threat to society out of said society.

quote

Quote:

Never believe anything unless you have seen it with your own eyes.

Loud agreement. But if we all decided to never make any judgements unless we'd seen everything involved with our own eyes, nothing would ever get done. Stagnation is bad, period.

quote

Quote:

If your ethics do not tell you that every single intelligent life is worth more than everything else on earth then you are not better than that sniper...

Wrong. They killed for money and fear. I would kill to save others. If you would not kill to save even your own family, then you deserve what life gives you.

Steelwind

[gigatron]

I have missed out news in the last 2-3 days so... I am a bit out of the loop.. however from past knowledge regarding CNN and its way of broadcasting (biased and towards Pro-US interest -- duh!)I am a bit uneasy about this whole thing how this guy got caught. I mean think about it for a moment, it took so much resources -- military even (supposingly), NOW these guys are caught and err are a buncha nobodies in a sense... The way things were they seemed trained, pro in a sense, and intelligent towards roaming around not getting caught in the same damn 'white' truck. Or whatever it was. All of a sudden BOOM the US police/military/agencies/etc... catch these lunatics... has it ever occured to you guys that these aren't actually the sniper(s) and that its maybe A. a setup, B. an excuse, why do I say this? Well .. if one or two men can cause so much chaos and America constantly sprices about themselves how they are the world power, want to clense of all evil (hahaha axis of evil -- love that) around the world, hmm, see what I am getting at? Just a thaught though. Just killing them immediately would be a 'solution' to solve this issue while the actual sniper is long gone hiding and satisfied. I don't want to make up some conspiracy talk out of this issue but seriously.. OK so these are the guys, but just killing them will not solve the death's of the others... It will just get them out of trouble (in life) not that they'll escape in the after-life (massive spanking of fire in hell hahah). Also.. its amusing how they immediately attempted to blame it on a terrorist attack but when it seemed like an american they didn't use the terrorist term... then now that the guy has his name as mohamed some talk has come up again.. strange.. OK end rant start flaming

Sorry for poopy english I am really tired as well..

[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: gigatron ]