[[Shizo]]

[Gort]

[Affected]

[Misc]

[Gort]

Gun Control is Bullshit
Penn and Teller
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- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[[Shizo]]

[Gort]

You're argument against the politics of voting is . . . political and comes across to me as biased. You think all rednecks vote republican? Beware of generalizations.

My brother Mike was a good guy; he lived in South Georgia, drove a truck and was a gun toting God fearin' American; if you met him you probably say, "there's a redneck". He collected welfare and was on disability. He hated the republican party, because it sought to implement welfare reform that would hold him accountable for getting off his ass and back in the saddle. He wanted nothing more than to be cared for, and the Democrats were his friend as a result - you need government to take care of you. He wasn't the only one either "down yonder".

In a way and somewhat parallel to your point, the same could be said about fiscally irresponsible people that do not take responsible action for their lives; should they too be denied the power of vote? Statistics show they vote Democrat and their vote counts, so to your point is that fair? If it's not fair for the rednecks voting republican, so then it's not fair for impoverished voting for Democrats.

As for American being perfect, I wouldn't say it's perfect, but one thing is I feel is that it beats socialism and communism. I enjoy competitive commerce models. We could both paint rosy pictures about one versus the other, but the bottom line is this: I can speak out freely against my government, if I am not happy about it. That is a freedom you do not have in China. People in China are picked up and jailed without trial for speaking out.
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- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[Drunken Monkey]

[Affected]

I guess this chart is relevant:
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/04/21/weekinreview/20070422_MARSH_GRAPHIC.html#

[Drunken Monkey]

Affected,

This is getting tired...

Suicides?! They count suicides? What those people wouldn't kill themselves if they didn't have guns?

And where is a comparative chart for stabbings, drugs used to overdose, and various heavy objects like frying pans and clubs? I want a chart of those nicely color coded too. As for the rest - if we outlaw guns these people wouldn't find another way to kill each other?

This graph is pointless (and i am being really mild in calling it that).
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[Affected]

It is data. You make of it what you will. I never said this proves guns should be banned. What I think this chart reflects - and this is where we get into interpretation - is the particular cultural features of homicide (let's put suicide in that category for now) in the USA. Particularly interesting is the enormous spike in white male's suicides after age 40.

[Drunken Monkey]

They are even higher in Japan.

The first thing i did when i looked at that graph was go to google and look for Asutralian suicide data prior and post the gun ban. To my total lack of surprise the number of suicides by handguns has dramatically decreased since their nation-wide gun ban. But the overall rate of suicides hasnt changed at all.

So what that means is that people found other ways to kill themselves when they really wanted to end their life.

Gun ban changes nothing in that category at all.

And these kind of half truths is exactly what Brady Campaign uses as its "accurate statistical data" - right down to icons of big red bullets so their target demographic can understand better.

As much as i'd like to leave this topic i just cant.
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[Sumaleth]

I don't think the inclusion of suicides is as bad as you're making out. It's "statistics on gun deaths", and those are gun deaths. And they've made it very easy to see the suicides in the visuals, so if you want non-suicide death statistics then you can ignore the red and the stats still work.

Now when you say the Australian suicide rate hasn't changed at all, how accurate is that? The Australian population has continued to increase since the gun ban, so for your argument to hold true the suicide rate would actually need to increase in proportion with the population.

I don't know if banning guns would do anything to help America -- maybe it wouldn't make any difference -- but I personally don't understand why people would prefer to live in a society where guns are everywhere.
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Art Links Archive -- Artists and Tutorials

[Affected]

suma: what are you talking about? Drunken monkey's argument basically says that since the gun ban, the suicide rate in Australia has not changed. You say that for that to be true, the suicide rate must have increased? That makes no sense.

[Drunken Monkey]

Suma, rate doesn't change with the total sum of people. If 2 out of 10 people kill themselves its 20%, if 20 out of 100 kill themselves its still 20%. And they just as easily could have included a pie chart, but they choose big red bullets instead. There is an agenda there.

There is a good article here, explaining how anti-gun movement skews statistics. With references to gov sites, written by a medical researcher.

A total gun ban in USA would have to be very gradual and would take a long time. And even then there will always be a group of people who will never give them up. Personally, if they asked me to turn in my guns tomorrow i'd move to another state.

As for the rest of the world, and this is deeply personal as well (my non personal argument is repeated in a half a dozen posts above) - i really don't understand how anyone can look at the way things are turning around in the world and not have a desire to have an ability protect themselves in case shit hits the fan.

But bottom line is like Gort mentioned - people need to be armed so government is afraid of the people. Every other issue is a side issue.
_________________
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[Sumaleth]

Yeah, I was just checking that the proportion had stayed the same. If "rate" was used here to mean "same number of suicides each year" then that would have worked against DM's argument.

DM, where did you find those Australian stats?

I've no doubt that the extremes on both sides of the debate skew the stats, which is why I'm really cautious about them.

(40% of stats are made up!!1)
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Art Links Archive -- Artists and Tutorials

[Drunken Monkey]

Suma, i looked at several articles about it, they were all very similar... this one shows a slight increase in suicides post ua gun ban (1996). Here is the official gov data.

Yeah I know its lies, damn lies, and statistics... but gov data is usually fairly raw.
_________________
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[Sumaleth]

Interesting stats.

The first link, which is specific to the two years after the gun ban, shows the same sort of steady increase in suicides that was seen before the ban.

And the same trend is clear in the other government stats, however something odd happens after 1998 -- the trend starts going down. For the 1993-2003 period covered by those stats, 2003 had the lowest number of suicides. And there's a really clear downward trend since 98.

So I can't agree with your summation that the overall rate of suicides in Australia has remained the same. It hasn't.

Harder to say whether the gun ban is the reason for the drop. If it is, it had a delayed reaction. Which wouldn't be unexpected I suppose, but these stats don't give an answer either way.
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Art Links Archive -- Artists and Tutorials

[Drunken Monkey]

I also looked at details pdf, the suicide numbers by firearms has been decreasing prior to ban as well. Well actually it has been decreasing dramatically in multiple categories since 1993 just the same. Then the 1996 spike in poisoning and hanging, but it resumes to go down after.

There is also very clear downtrend in 55-75 year old group before the ban.

So i have to disagree with any kind of delayed reaction the ban had. But i do think its a very short slice of time to be drawing any kind of hard conclusions from.

pdf page 13

edit: i actually read the text now, not just look at the graphs and select data...

In 2003 the most common method of suicide was hanging, which was used in almost half (45%) of all suicide deaths. The next most used methods were poisoning by 'other' (including motor vehicle exhaust) (19%), Other (15%), poisoning by drugs (13%), and methods using firearms (9%). This distribution was consistent with that of the previous few years. However, over the decade strong trends were apparent such as the increase in the use of hanging, and a decrease in methods using firearms.

indeed...
_________________
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[Tomasis]

whats point with showing stats of increasing suicides due gun ban? quite irrelevant

[Gort]

Not really - depends on which argument you're trying to present.
_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[Jimmyjimjim]

WHOAAAHHH- 140 posts on this sucker!

I should start a new career inciting riots!

Of course, I jest because this is so amazingly off-topic now.

[Drunken Monkey]

The point is that Brady Campaign constantly uses suicides and accidental child deaths as a main motivator to take the guns away from the public. A miniscule fraction of people die but if you yell loud enough about it - the dumbed down public will think the issue is bigger than it actually is.

They use excerpts from these statistics and mold them to support their own arguments. They can't make it a rational debate - they'd lose.

What�s even more disturbing... and this is not something i am going to have another 50 post argument about - is that they are heavily sponsored by "humanists" such as Rockerfellers. There is a larger much more sinister agenda that these bankers have and thats to unite the world in one colossal revenue generating machine where people have just enough rights to make them a lot of money. After all it makes sense for business.

They can't do that while people still have political power (guns) - as it goes directly against the constitution so they have to use these knife in the ribs tactics of lies and deceit. They will say things like "we don't want to take away guns!" while gradually going for assault rifles, handguns, .50 rifles... until you are left with a musket or a water pistol.

And this isn't local just to USA, this is something that is global. Banks as some of you might know are a country of their own - without borders.

I know trying to convince anyone of anything is a futile thing to do. Its even true in my case as well. That said...

Out of my cold dead hands.
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[Misc]

[Drunken Monkey]

[Tzan]

[Sumaleth]

[Drunken Monkey]

[Tzan]

[Tzan]

Ok, I fixed it!