[shahar2k]

chris, many people *cough*me*cough* would agree that religion is evil, it's an enforced framework, that is based on little to no logical use/proof, ok it has it's use to some people, and it is a powerfull guide, but I believe it dilutes the truth, infact any strong rigid belief dilutes the truth,
I happen to ultimately believe in doubting everything. it's just that if you do doubt everything, you have to learn what you can trust enough to hold true even though it my not be.


anyways, I don't think there really is any thing as true Evil, I think that Evil as a concept is absolutely subjective, and therefore obays the empathy rule, where if you can't know the other one you are invariably not considering all the options, you may or may not be considering theiry position.

[Affected]

Transcendent, I'm sorry, but what you said is BS. Killing is not automatically considered evil. In many societies, killing a member of an enemy society has been, and still is, considered an heroic, even divinely justified deed. Killing is usually only evil when the killee is a member of the killers society. Why? It is a necessary rule. People need safety, and a society where everyone can kill anyone they like is not a safe one.

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Affected

Democracy is a lie

http://affected.xs.mw

[Chris]

which all goes back on what your society TEACHES you to be evil...

[shahar2k]

yup, Evil is 100% subjective, then again some things are just evolutionarily stupid (as in eating all children at birth, will not get a species far....)

[Affected]

...unless it's a species that needs to run really, really fast all the time, in which case the fittest babies would be those who start running right after birth. Those who don't wouldn't survive anyway, so they might as well be eaten. :P

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Affected

Democracy is a lie

http://affected.xs.mw

[shahar2k]

for humans affected, and there ya go, another example of how evolution and convenience determines evil

child labor's perfectly fine when the 10 year old is the sole provider for the family

[DeadlySCSI]

...wouldn't another definition of "Evil" be "whatever we don't want to happen to us"? We never want to die (humans, as a rule, cling to life like Limpits) and we want to live a full life to see the end. Therefore, we don't want our life to be cut short, and especially not if someone else is going to kill us. So therefore, most things are evil... like dumping someone for someone else, like stealing some eartly money, like saying that we are worthless and like taking anothers life.

Perhaps I've missed the point (which, I do with depressing regularity) but the concept of "Evil" or even "Bad" is just the things which happen to us in our darkest nightmares.

Also, If the higher being looked down on us, it'd be like us looking at an ants nest, we don't care what happens to the each ant, they can kill each other if they want. But if the colony starts to die then we would notice. The real "Evil" is when our colony disintigrates (which I think it is right now) and to be Human and Good is seen to be InHuman and Bad... (I think I'm in danger of missing the point now so I'll stop...)

[shahar2k]

I think Evil is a term applied to something you do, not something that is done to you, but it is not applied by yourself.

[platinum_burn]

evil is as evil does...

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-heh

[Spitfire]

I am evil.

[DeadlySCSI]

*slaps himself* dammit, *slaps himself again* manages to kill the topic by being an idiot again... *picks up something heavy and attempts to knock himself out*...<CLANG> <THUD> <THUD> <THUD>... <sound of body hitting floor>

----END OF LINE----

[Count Zero]

Spitfire, thanks for that all-encompassing answer.
So the next time in philosophy class when the teacher asks us to define evil, I'll just ooh and aah everybody by saying "Spitfire". Saves me a lot of hassle.

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COUNT ZERO INTERRUPT-
On receiving an interrupt,
decrement the counter to zero.

[Affected]

That's an interesting claim, Spitfire...

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Affected

Democracy is a lie

http://affected.xs.mw

[Ragnarok]

I have a point for you: I think we are against killing human beings. If you think about blood (lots), the smell of a dead person, his looks, when he/she cries in pain. Our body gets sick. Is it only our mind or it's our genes? Our genes try to survive, so we do. It's another interesting theory.

About evil, I think it was Aristoteles who said that we never do something we think it's wrong. We will always do something we think is better. Killing someone? We want to get rid of him because it makes our life better, so it's a good solution and better than living with him. I don't know if it's true, but when I analyze my actions, it seems to "work".

Sorry for my bad english, still learning .

-Ragnarok

[Nex]

Interresting point with this gene programming thing.

We have a lot of different signs (visual, audio or smell) that we react uniform to.
Yawning is one of the most harmless of those pre-programmed things [it was useful to coordinate the sleep cycles of a community but now its practically useless] but if someone yawn you really feel like yawning too. Then there is the grip reflex that very young children have when you touch their hands. Then we all dislike the smell of rotten meat (because evolution told us that rotten meat is bad for us?) or of excrements.

The points I found here are rather weak i realize but it could be that concience is just some old programming code left over that pops up every now and then. Stonger in some, weaker in others. Or maybe just dependant on what you believe in.
--

Another different approach to this whole question:

1) Would you say animals are evil?
I'd not say that.. at least not by what I know of them right now.
Lets say they are NOT evil.

2) Are humans animals or not?
I would have always tended to say that we are in fact nothing more than more intelligent animals.. with this approach however I am not so sure any more.

But if we are NOT animals, what makes us so different from them? Are we "chosen"? Are we just one step ahead?

Or is it the intelligence that makes the difference between animal (not evil) and human (not animal)?

From another side a criminal who killed someone in affect and without planing to do so before is judged milder than a criminal who planned a murder years before.
Both are murderers but is the one that used intelligence (rather than instinct/rage/the animal inside) more evil?

[Ragnarok]

What makes us different from animals is we KNOW we are going to die someday.

About the murderers question I think the one that planned it is "more guilty". He thought about it over and over, he saw the possibilities of getting caught, what will happen to him, etc. The other murderer just acted without thinking, he was acting more like an animal rather than a person. :confused

[shahar2k]

NEX, it's interesting that you ask whether humans are animals or not, but to do that, you have to simplify that question (heh I'm always about simplifying things, that's how I think) you'd have to know what was the definition of human from animals (I think inteligence) and what qualifies inteligence? (hmm, the ability to look and understand the world through several perspectives other than your own, allso called: Empathy) now, this definition alows me to say that I believe that not all animals are infact nonintelligent (chimpanzees have been known to learn by observation and adapt tribal coltures, as have dolphins, and gray african parrots) I actually consider those animals on the same level as humans, their awareness that they are not the only thing in the world that can think is what makes them intelligent.... as for Evil, well I'm not so sure that Evileven exists any more... I'm working on my explenation

[Chris]

quote

Quote:

I actually consider those animals on the same level as humans

I don't think they are on the same lvl as humans. I'm pretty tired right now to explain my reasoning, but we are far more intelligent then chimpanzees and the other animals you were referring to.

Not saying they aren't intelligent, but not on the same lvl as us.

[shahar2k]

well by saying on the same level, I mean that there's a fine line between a group of animals, and a civilization (even a beginning of one), and humans aren't the only ones that apply for the second, although they are the most prominent.

[Ragnarok]

I really think that we are a step further than those animals because we know that we are going to die, so we know life is something that doesn't last forever and has "no meaning", it's absurd (sp?) so we think about religion and we laugh. I really think that only someone that knows that life has and end can laugh, so animals don't.

[shahar2k]

how do you know what animals know? don't elephants go back to a dead elephant's grave? have you ever seen a dead chimp with it's group? these are pretty high up animals, what I'm saying as that we, humans, are nothing special.

[Ragnarok]

Tell me which animal laughs: no one. This is a big difference in my opinion. Those animals look at the dead body thinking the animal is still alive, trying to wake it up, and when they can't stay with it anymore, the continue looking for food and surviving.

[shahar2k]

ragnarok, I don't know, although there are human coltures which don't even laugh,
put a child by a dead body and they'll do the same as the animal would, except a child has the capacity to grow beyond that, why say animals don't?

[Ragnarok]

Because they haven't. Maybe they will evolucionate, but nowadays they are not at our level, and I think we usually project our emotions on them so they look more human, but an intelligent being can be very different from us...
I dunno =/

[shahar2k]

well Ragnarok (couldn't you pick an easier viking type name? like Thor? Just kidding... ) there really is no current way of knowing what animals (the wild, not trained-with-sign-language-and-grown-with-human-ones really think, we need a seriously special frame of mind to even begin to consider that...

back to the original topic here do you think Evil exists? I mean is there such a thing?
I think Evil only exists where we do not accept things. and therefore it is a human concept, and not an actual reality.

[Chris]

quote

Quote:

what I'm saying as that we, humans, are nothing special.

Hmmm...I disagree, we have a more high tolerance to survive then most other animals. Our need to survive is stronger and therefore our species will live longer. Intelligence has helped a lot in that concept, but so be it.

And we already discussed about evil. Things that are considered evil is taught and by nature I think we are evil, because it is a better and easier way of life. But to put consequences on evil (which society puts us on) we start to learn the difference between evil and good.

[Ragnarok]

Well, shahar2k, I use Muspellheim as well
Thor is kinda overused, but Ragnarok will soon be very common I think =/

I agree with you about we need a special frame of mind.

quote

Quote:

Our need to survive is stronger and therefore our species will live longer

I disagree. Any animal has the same need to survive, all kind of life has a purpose: survive. But animals doesn't have as much intelligence as we have or they would have took over the planet as we have done.

About Evil: it doesn't exist in my opinion in that way, because we always do what we think is good at the moment, so you can't make something because it's bad and therefore you can't be evil

-Ragnarok

PS: shahar, do you know what ragnarok means? by the way, I would like to know what shahar is, 'cause it sounds strange to me

[Nex]

quote:

---

Our need to survive is stronger and therefore our species will live longer

---

I would say that the need to survive is not higher in humans.. why should it be.
Even animals enjoy life over being killed.
I don't think a human would stand a good chance against a tiger one on one (hand to hand).
We have two big advantages however:

1. We are more intelligent than animals
2. We can adapt well to almost all climates.

so lets say we are .. different (evil) animals?

[Count Zero]

Nex, humans (sort of) stopped adapting some time ago. We now adapt the environment to fit our needs, not vice versa as it is with other species. All other animals are in sync with the harmony of nature, and instinctively keep up a natural balance. People just say "fuck that" and rape nature to their own needs. We are also prone to excess, unlike other animals.
Ain't it great to be human?

[shahar2k]

Isn't ragnarock the final conflict between the gods?
I admit I know it from playing Rune, but hey, gotta learn somehow. btw what's Muspellheim?
shahar means dawn in hebrew, it's my actual name.

while humans do adapt to nature, we don't adapt as fast as it seems, most of what we call "adaptation" `is actualy us creating our own environments to seperate us from nature around us (clothing, housing, even a fire) that's why toolmaking is a big judgement point of intelligence among scientists.

physically we are even less adapted to life than most animals, put a human child in nature and that child will be dinner for something else more likely than not. we have grown out of our instincts quite a long time ago, and relied on our little brains to do most of the surviving for us, but for that to work, humans had to work in groups, because no memory can be passed down without it actually being taught from one person to the next.