[shahar2k]

chris, dove, not a pigeon, doves are somewhat better

as for Brue. you might find it hard to belive, but I do read the bible, or what you'd call the "old testament" I'm jewish, and i've taken classes in that subject because it's a required subject in Israel

but if there's anything I take badly to, it is organized belief, and religion.
there is a quote that goes "religion is the opiate of the masses" (Trotsky?)

(to make a short story long)

and I really think that is the truth
religion, or worship began as people considered powers outside their controll, and applied those powers, those events to "gods" just as matter was devided into fire water earth and air, so were the miracles of the world alotted to their various guardians, or gods. as time went on, these gods had temples built for them, and statues made, but then some people, were nomads, and could not affoard to carry heavy statues, and visit stationary temples, so they in turn created a god that was portable, a lone god, that's responsible for everything, and one which could be prayed to without a statue or a temple, and still hear you. that made these pople's beliefs fit their lifestyle, and eventually it became popular, and several sub religions sprang off of the main one (who was first I do not know, but christians are rather recent, while jews are not quite as recent, as for muslims, well I think they believe they came from abraham's lineage, which would put them on the same timeframe as jews.)

now I think that the only reasons religions split off, is because... well you want to belong to a group, and if you have to make your own group than so be it. I don't think that god created the earth, (and especially not considering ages of Ice cores in the antarctic, and fossils)
and while belief and faith are great things, they are seprate, I have faith, it keeps me going, it is a great thing to have (goes great with mustard)
but I do not share the belief in this... book, which really is nothing more than an elaborate historical book, with a little UFO sightings mixed in (by UFO I mean things people can't explain and they assign them to the most popular current theory be it religion or UFO or cornflake boxes)

[Chris]

I don't like doves..they are ugly too me. But I know that goes for a pigeon too.

[Brue]

never mind

[This message has been edited by Brue (edited November 17, 2000).]

[Ragnarok]

Brue, I want to say that I take you seriously. You have to understand that some people believe in different things, in different gods and some people believe in themselves. You are trying to save us, and it looks like you are trying to help us, but maybe we are happy as we live right now. I have never been pushed in any direction and I've decided that I don't believe in religions. Christianity is a religion I live with, but I'm not part of it and I will probably never be. Islam an jewish are unknown to me, but they don't seem the kind of religion that I will follow. Recently a lama came to my high school and I thought it was the best option, but it involves avoiding material things, and I live happy with them right now. So, I have no religion and your pray is not something I that will change anything in my "world". You ought to let people make their decisions about something as personal as religion.

-Ragnarok

[-- Transcendent --]

Thank you Brue. It was scary to think I was the only Christian in this forum. You've given me the strength to come back to this thread.

I'm glad all of you are off my "light and darkness" case, but I've decided to bring the topic up again (since, well, I've made it back to this thread) I've made a pictorial illustration to capture the essence of what I'm saying.



Look at the circle as a "hole". Now tell me, is it a black hole in a white box, or a white hole in a black box ? The former seems more obvious, but with a little thought, you would realize that the latter's true too. And both are true. Because we cannot tell if the black circle's a hole, or the white patch's a hole. But we know there's a hole. Hmmm, I hope you get what I'm saying.

To explain eternity, I think we look too much at time as a linear gradient between change, induced by energy, from order to chaos. However, we have to look at time differently, relativity tells you time is a dimension, and can be moved and changed. If we transcended above time after death, then wouldn't that be considered "eternity" ?

I think Quantum physics and Relativity can prove the existence of God, just indirectly. Yes, I know of many people who look at them as "strange stuff", yes, indeed they are. But I think what all this "strange stuff" goes to prove is that reality is not mechanical, the future is not predetermined, and most importantly, it challenges our comprehension of reality. What we see was, and still is a blurred image of reality. We can never measure the velocity of a particle if we want to determine it's position, and the same goes vise versa. We have to sacrifice one variable for another.

Shahar2k : Jesus was a historical figure, not a mythological one as you suggested, just ask any historian. I think Jesus is just as real as Hitler. Apologies for the terrible comparison, please read on. Have you been in world war 2 ? I don't think so. Do you believe world war 2 existed ? Yes. And if you can belief the existence of WW2 simply from reading a textbook, and that world war 2 was not some fancy conspiracy to promote world peace by a secret group of top secret government (alien shape shifters, actually) officials, what makes it so difficult to believe Jesus existed ? Sorry if my done sounded unintentionally harsh ... it wasn't meant this way.

Moving on, dreams are strange things, I'm sure you all know that. But what remains as a paradox is how everything can make sense in a dream. In a dream, all seems so clear, and so real. I think human understanding is no more than a little chemical in our brains which comforts us, telling us we are in control of our lives. But the question is, when you wake up (from life's dream), will you realize what a fool you were when you were asleep ?

Food for thought.

Sorry for the long,, long ramble. I like doves, and I know I should have antialiased the circle.

Gabriel

[shahar2k]

Brue, if we would be discussing guns, and which one was better, would you take your gun and shoot the other person?
because I think that prayer thing was just over the line.
I don't know though, I mean I might have done the same thing with my proof of god, but to me that's pure logic, the prayer would be comperable to me just saying flat out that you suck, and that path proves it.

I'm taking this discussion seriously, I take all discussions seriously, they aren't discussions if you don't.
I'll say this, I am just as likely to convince you of my theories of god science and the universe (the universe exists as the dynamic interactions on the surface of a multidimentional sphere, with time as a plane rather than a dimention) as you are to convince me that the bible is 100% truth, and completely undisputeable.

and I feel just as sorry for you for not seeing that.
but I don't go saying that I fee that way, I understand your need for religion, everyone fulfils that need in some way or another.


I was born jewish, I went to temple with my parents when I was a kid, because it was what my parents liked, and they seemed happy knowing I went. I still go to temple with my parents, and for the same reason, they know what I believe, they know very well that I do not think that religion in the traditional sense is right, and they accept it, I go with them because it gives them comfort (although I bitch about it every once in a while )

I have a very good friend who is Bahai, I have another very good friend who is as christian as it gets. both very smart people, (smarter than me in many aspects)
but the smartest thing they do is understand that other people WILL BE DIFFRENT, christianity is not right because 100 thousand people believe in it, it's right because YOU believe in it, it's your point of view, and everything that does you good is good. obviously you rely on your belief, and I think you should always consider other's arguments as true and false. because while they may work for the person, nothing is universal, nothing works for everyone.

[Nex]

First and foremost:

The existence of God can not be proven

I do not remember who wrote it now, I just read through it all and felt the need to say that- I have heard this soo many times already.. someone is telling me that the existence of god can be proven and then when I ask for details all I get is a contruct of "would be's" "could be's" "if's" and emotions/beliefs.

If someone could actually PROVE the existence of god then there would not be agnostics and materialists any more.

The thing with ste spirit in form of a dove:

The bible is NOT a historically exact book. Its not a "matter of facts" kind of book.
It was written to transport a MESSAGE.
The bible consists of so many different sources (authors) that it has many parts that do not at all fit logically together.
Especially in the old testament.

Now if they wrote in that book that the spirit came in the form of a dove it does not mean that you take that literally.
A dove had a strong symbolic meaning at that time and it still has to today.

Some things in the new testament are proven.. like the existence of golgotha, and that there were people crucified there etc.
Even that jesus existed is a pretty accepted fact by historicans, religious or not.

Brue:

I take you seriously and to be honest your prayer (if it was meant seriously by you too) makes me afraid.

why?

because you want to believe so hard in god and you seek so much for guidance that you are very easy to manipulate. And that is dangerous. The most evil crimes are those done in the name of god and there has been a LOT of bloodshed for that matter.

Do you know that part of the bible where it says "Help yourself and god will help you..?"
Maybe you should think of that.. because to me you leave the impression of a very desparate person. You seek guidance and help in god but without trying to find the answers for yourself first.

I hope you don't take what I said personal. I do not mean to be disrespectful to you or anything.. its just that I have had my bible overdose and at some point i opened my eyes and did not see the things any more in that golden light of glory and holyness, of virtue and humility.

I saw it the way it really is [Edit: I realize this is arrogant so I'd better say "the way I am sure it is"].

I wake up the next day not because god decided that I might live yet another day to prove my existence's worth but just because I have no disease and my body is still working well.
I do not get better grades on exams when I pray before I make them, and god does not cure my sickness if I pray or not.

praying can help. but its YOU who helps you not god. a strong will to reach certain goals CAN improve your strength. But its the same as the placebo effect.

So don't take this to personal.. its just you who said it so.



[This message has been edited by Nex (edited November 17, 2000).]

[Speve-o-matic]

The paradox that is God. Not to be arrogant . . . but there is some really well written and expansive literature on all the issues being discussed here today.

These posts are interesting to read . . . in a trashy tabloid kind of way.

Once again, nothing said here so far is unique in any way . . . the harsh reality of defining a concept using any language. It has been written and noted by some individual before you . . . that's why individuals find it so easy to label themselves with these wonderfully provocative titles. "Im an Agnostic!!!!" (Just an example, no personal attacks here. )

These become linguistic battles of what people said and what they really meant.

This is like watching television. You know you should be doing something more worthwhile with your life, but it's just so much easier just to sit and carry on watching the myriad of shows that is presented to you. Yep, dumping your opinions on this forum is easy and you may be able to retrace posts and contradict the pride out of someone, but you know that you should be grounding yourself in Philosophy (for this particular argument) . . . but reading thick books with big words is harder, and you feel so much more powerful and entertained here . . . *sigh*

This is a case of 'The media is the message.'

- Steve

Edit: I was going to revise my post to better explain what I meant, but it just reinforces the idea of the linguistic battle.

Also, I didn't intent to be so harsh on the 'trashy tabloid' nature of these posts, because I do realise that they can be an important starting point for self reflection, and some of you have presented some ideas quite nicely . . Aargh . . destroying some of the purpose of my original post. Must stop posting . . must leave.

[This message has been edited by Speve-o-matic (edited November 17, 2000).]

[Ragnarok]

Trascendent, your idea about darkness and light doesn't work. Light is photons that collide with surfaces, are reflected and our retine reacts to these. Dark is nothing. When something doesn't reflects anything it's dark.

quote

Quote:

I think Quantum physics and Relativity can prove the existence of God, just indirectly

People often forget that quantum physics only work on smaller elemental entities like photons, you can't apply them to the bigger world. In fact, the biggest problem in physics today is to mix relativity with quantum physics.

quote

Quote:

Jesus was a historical figure

Yes, he was someone who actually was born and died. But we don't know if he did any miracles or said what people say he said.
Brue, religions aren't an unclear prospect to me. I know about them but I don't believe in any of them.

quote

Quote:

Now if they wrote in that book that the spirit came in the form of a dove it does not mean that you take that literally.

It's really amazing to see how always bible has been taken literally and now that we know much more about how this world works they say we have to see it as some kind of poem. Oh, and they have applied the last discoveries about big bang to the genesis idea.

[shahar2k]

it's a bit strange that the koraan is almost never mentioned in these arguments (perhaps its cus it's against their religion to translate it, which means it's more purely preserved)

anyways about Ideas discussed here, speve-o and anyone who I've insulted, I present my Ideas, and anything I do other than that, is just me being funny, (or not) I think these discussions are great, they are the excercise that your brain needs in order to stay fit. I think about these questions every day, and I think everyone should question the world around them
I've said it before, and I'll say it again
Doubt everything
there are no, there never will be, and there never have been 100% truths in this world, get used to it, and find your own best fit.

[Freddio]

Its called faith for a reason?

basically we dont know shit... thats why we have to have faith in earlier teachings which have been passed down through culture and the bible....

Jesus lived and was a man.. (So im told)

but was he the son of God, thats the real question..

the reason why we dont have any miracles and such today, is that we would automatically know that God existed and therefore there would be no need to have faith in him....

If you do have faith in God what have you got to Loose?

but basically we dont know shit! If you feel there is something there. you have a certain purpose for life, there is something there....


when the question was asked why is everyone dying then if God loves us so much?

Well what if there is heaven. Surely heaven has got to be a better place than anywhere in the world.
Think of the nicest place in the world. now it says that heaven is better than that...

So are all these dying ppl all that hard done by...

living in paradise while we toil away on the sijun forums wondering if heaven exists..


have you ever had a dream... and in that dream the you see a person or an event which happens the next day..?

its very strange... and if we can see things which happen the next day in our life then there is fate.....

[Brue]

OK, i am just saying that i am coming across in the wrong way. I am open to other religons but i am stuck with my own. I am just posting my opinion cause thats what i thought this was for. I am not trying to say that my religion is the only way. but all of you seem to think that i am. Sorry if that's the message i am giving you, but plz, plz i am only expressing MY opinion and dont think i am forcing this on you.

I dont think this random musing place is somewhere where i want to concentrate, infact maybe i shouldnt even visit it or write here.
SO PLZ DONT BE MAD AT ME FOR POSTING MY OPINIONS< IF THEY ARE OFFENCIVE I"M SORRY> they were not ment to be

Thats all i have to say now.
-Brue

[Chris]

quote

Quote:

basically we dont know shit... thats why we have to have faith in earlier teachings which have been passed down through culture and the bible....

Soo, ahem, if we don't know shit now in today's age, ummm...what makes you think they knew shit back then?!?

quote

Quote:

Well what if there is heaven. Surely heaven has got to be a better place than anywhere in the world.

So if there is a better place then earth, what the hell we doing on earth, why not just head up there right away?

I mean I read a post before saying God created us to keep him company, wouldn't we better company up with him, instead of down here. See how it doesn't make sence?

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited November 17, 2000).]

[Speve-o-matic]

Shahar, your ideas have not offended me in the least.

What I'm trying to get across, is that these forums are not the means to an end. We should always be educating ourselves. It's just that this is the greatest extent that many people take the exploration of their ideas, and they owe it to themselves to take it further. Not a select few in this discussion, but everyone.

Just like you can benefit from studying the great masters (painting wise) you can only benefit from studying the great thinkers.

Study and question as often as you can, to keep your ideas in check. Write a journal, to see the evolution of your own ideas too. It could one day form the basis for your own theories.

- Steve

[Brue]

HI i know what your thinking, BRUE AGAIN!!
yes, me again. all i want to say is this:
Believe what you want,
Do what you want,
Have your own life,
But, consider all

I am not trying to force a religon on any of you. I am only trying to educate you on a different some what un clear prospect. Plz dont take my wordds the wrong way.
I guess thats all i have to say.

-Brue

[Freddio]

Chris dont be so hypocritical...

this world was made for us humans.... we are Gods Ant farm...

Ants live in ant farms...

Jesus is over 2000 years old Chris... He was alive 2000 years ago so thats how they knew shit back then. So we have to trust the ppl who were around in the day of Jesus.

[Count Zero]

Speve-o-matic, ever consider, that we're here for the conversation and opinions/thoughts of others, not the end result of the conversation? This isn't a debate.
It seems to me that you're saying, "shut up and go read an educational book on the subject".
I'm not interested in LEARNING whether god exists or not, but what other people THINK about it. Y'know, social interaction and stuff. You can read about art from the masters and look at their work to no end, but at the end of the day, I'd rather TALK to an artist than read about them.
Agree with you saying that our language is not enough to even discuss God, imo.
EDIT:
*personal attack towards Speve-o-matic removed*
Oh, PS, I did take offense at the labeling oneself...
EDIT #2: Fuck it. Here goes...
Who the fuck are you to tell ME how I should or should not define myself? I honestly happen to see myself as an agnostic, or at least my definition of an agnostic. You seem to be saying that I am hiding behind a label for convenience, not out of true belief. I just don't see how I can take that as anything else EXCEPT an insult. By reading 2 or 3 of my posts, you see it fit to pass judgement on me? I don't see how I can interpret what you are saying in any other way, but hey, what do I know...
The hell with it. If this turns into a flamewar, well... frankly darling, I don't give a damn.
------------------
COUNT ZERO INTERRUPT-
On receiving an interrupt,
decrement the counter to zero.

[This message has been edited by Count Zero (edited November 18, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Count Zero (edited November 18, 2000).]

[Ragnarok]

quote

Quote:

Jesus is over 2000 years old Chris... He was alive 2000 years ago so thats how they knew shit back then. So we have to trust the ppl who were around in the day of Jesus.

Pardon? We have to trust ppl who put ppl on circus to see them die? ppl who killed their neighbours when they thought they were ugly or looking at their faces in a wrong way? Those days were days when the strongest survived and the intelligents usually didn't grow up further than 10 years old. I don't think they were wiser than us.

Speve, I've read many of the great thinkers as well as some of the scientists and I have an opinion that still differs from yours. Am I wiser? Are you? It's not important, because we are here to talk not to convince.

shahar, you talk like Descartes

Brue, we know it's an opinion and please keep posting.

-Ragnarok

[Freddio]

yes we do...

culture was different back then to how it is at present.

its called faith for a reason

[shahar2k]

wow, I talk like descartes, I take that as a great compliment

sorry for not repsonding to anything else, it's 4:30 AM, I'm reading it over and over, but I'm too tired for anything to go into my brain.

I like philosophy, for the sake of thinking, I'm a brain body builder, I like my brain, I keep my brain exercised. heh and it's fun to know everyone here seems to also

end communication

[Speve-o-matic]

Why would we want to start a flame war?

Does what I say get your adrenaline pumping to a certain degree, or make you angry? That is not my intention.

I wouldn't class this as the most intense social interaction. You are interacting with text, imposing a social reality upon it.

I don't want to take this to the domain of personal cheap shots. No need to.

Count Zero, do you not think that because you label yourself with a term, that you impose a mold upon yourself?

I'm not talking about textually, but within your mind . . . you think that you are an Agnostic?

Agnostic is just a word, but you know there is so much more depth to you, so why resort to a mere word? I am not reprimanding, I want your feedback!! I don't want to create a negative bias around my nickname. This is merely a discussion.

I am not trying to convince . . .
I just feel that there are some very thought provoking ideas out there that won't be discussed here . . . and you won't necessarily find them in the bible, or other religious books.

Ragnarok: Why would our opinions be the same? Where did the assumption come in, that if you study further you adapt a particular way of thinking or a particular viewpoint?

Maybe educated . . not wiser.

- Steve

[This message has been edited by Speve-o-matic (edited November 18, 2000).]

[Ragnarok]

It's interesting how the timeframes work...
Here it's 14:00 but there is 4:00!
Well, I think that a word can't define a person, but some persons want to be identificated with a word.
I would like to have more time to read classics and new physics theories, but, well, I'm aiming for a career where maths and physics are the main subjects, so I suppose i will learn many strange and mind blowing theories soon
About God existence I think, like I've said before, there aren't enough proves. Have you ever read viking myths? they are really interesting, because the way their gods were is very human like, just they have more powers. Oh, and the ragnarok is very interesting too

-Ragnarok

[Count Zero]

"I wouldn't class this as the most intense social interaction. You are interacting with text, imposing a social reality upon it."
Tell me in what real social situation would I be able to talk to people from around the globe on a universal topic such as this? And I for one find this easier than IRL talking, I have time to ponder over my replies and opinions, without pressure.
I admit, you have a point in this being not being very intense, but I find this as valid a place as any.

"Count Zero, do you not think that because you label yourself with a term, that you impose a mold upon yourself? I'm not talking about textually, but within your mind..."
No, I honestly don't. I think that's a big problem with people. They walk around yelling at the top of their lungs "Don't label me!", but they have NO idea of who they really are, with or without labels. I can call myself an Agnostic with a clear conscience, without thinking it labels me in any way. Of course I don't define my entire personality as Agnostic or Finnish or male or even as teenager. It is true that I am more than a sum of separate terms used to define social and religious groups, that's obvious. But these separate terms make it easier for OTHER people to comprehend who I am. If I were to answer each question with "I'm me" I wouldn't have many friends. And I think this would be a hindrance to my self identity. It would seem these labels give YOU a mold in your mind about me. It's like you said, a single word is not enough to define anything, but it's a start from which to build on. You should pay attention to all the things I've said afterwords and add those to Agnostic.
And since we are talking about religion, I could go on forever about my personal views on life, the universe and everything, but by saying I am an Agnostic, I cover a lot of ground with a single word. Of course, I would never leave the conversation at just that, I would expand on the subject and add my own opinions. By stating my original standpoint I just give people a preconception from which to build on. So no, in a sense I am not an Agnostic. I am me, and my belief in God happens to be an agnostic-approach, as was the original question.

So, now I have a question for you... How would you define yourself as a person?

PS. Sorry I got so upset, but I felt that it was a personal attack against me. I respond badly to negative criticism.

[Speve-o-matic]

I wasn't questioning its validity, just its sense of social reality.

I suppose I just wanted a more in depth insight as to your approach/mind set.

I have used titles before, but I hated having to give a general term and then to update and make exceptions so as to try and give an individual a better understanding of my beleifs and approaches. Words don't cut it and I rarely try to put myself in these situations.

I don't scream "Don't label me!" just to let you know.

I don't feel the need to define myself, 'society' feels the need to define me. So I try to avoid as much self definition as possible, but often it is necesarry to create or try and avoid a particular bias. Appearance, beleifs, etc. I don't feel that need now.

I have a self sensibility, not a self definition.

It has been a great discussion so far, but I want to get back to the matter at hand. Supper.

- Steve

[Isric]

quote

Quote:

Pardon? We have to trust ppl who put ppl on circus to see them die? ppl who killed their neighbours when they thought they were ugly or looking at their faces in a wrong way?

Not all the people were like that. Many but not all, and the ones that weren't wrote the bible, Also, the Lord sent Jesus for that exact reason. To save the unsaved from their sins and deliver them from evil. That is exactly why he aslo died on the cross as a sacrifice for the sins of those in the WORLD in the past present and future

quote

Quote:

Brue, we know it's an opinion and please keep posting.

-Brue

[Brue]

oops i posted in my bro's name. I forgot to give the right info

[Ragnarok]

w00p!

Well, answering your post, I have to say that I don't believe in that about sins, because there is a lot of religion involved in the narration of the facts, and the bible was writen about 100 years after jesus death.

Oh, and when christianity "ruled" the known world (Europe) people wasn't better than romans were.

[Ragnarok]

Brue, it sounds as if those who don't believe are the ones that do the sins.
Well, if you were meaning it, I completly disagree. Most of the people are religious in this world, so a big percentage of the sins are made by these.
I read about three months ago about a strange case in england: a teenager (12 i think) had a baby (from a rape I think) and wanted to abort, but the priest of the town told her about what big sin she was going to do, and with the help of her parents they forced the girl to have the baby AND grew it up. Opinions?

[This message has been edited by Ragnarok (edited November 18, 2000).]

[Count Zero]

Wrong, wrong, wrong, so very wrong...

[shahar2k]

brue, a question:
do you believe in 100% certainty that you are correct? if so, what is the chance that anyone else is correct?

speve-o
labeling, is kinda like using language instead of telepathy, in language you condense a thought into a word, then hope that the other person condenses the same thoughts into that word, and hope he gets the message, it's the way the brain works, if we had telepathy it would be so much easier.