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pierre
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Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 285
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2000 1:33 pm     Reply with quote
I am back!

From long days and long hours.

I have been having several deadlines I have been working on and I just came back and read the thread.

Since I haven't had any time for anything else than my deadlines, I have not started on Mickes pic yet, that is an easy one. I will do it the first thing in the morning tommorrow and post it here.

I have taken some new pictures of a painting that I had at home, details of it, so that you will be able to see my brushstrokes.

I will do what it takes to have you guys believe that I have painted those stuff, because I have.

I finished an oil painting for my girlfriend not a long time ago, she have it now. I will ask her to take some pictures of it, details and macros. That one will be interesting.


Be sure to be here tommorrow for a first attempt to prove myself.
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BlackFork
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Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2000 1:45 pm     Reply with quote
I, for one, will be waiting. I just hope those are ligit brush strokes and not gesso. I've seen people gesso over retouched photos and colorprints that were "laminated" onto canvas. It is very convincing... but you can spot it. I agree with Dhabih... there was a hyper-realistic movemnt... but Pierre's work doesn't show a directional progression or consistancy that is, in my opinion, indicitave of that stylistic approach. For instance, on his site there is a picture of a guy in a cart being pulled by some type of bull/cow. I could duplicate that painting in 15 minutes in Photoshop. using the image and default textures with little or NO tweaking.

And the lion picture. That is a photo... HARDCORE. That is a simple filter and repaint. Let's assume for a second that that's an actual painting. The lion is exquisite! The energy of the lion is "right there" Then you have the wings. Ham handed and amateurish. The lighting does not match up and they are no where near the quality of the lion. It was addition to make it "original".

My opinions! But I sure am looking forward to the proof tomorrow.
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phreaknasty
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Joined: 21 Jun 2000
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Location: bay area

PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2000 1:56 pm     Reply with quote
regardless as to the authenticity of pierre images, hes got to be the nicest, most gentle guy i've ever meet. to take all this flack and still post chipper and non-bitter replies... geezz.. i'd be cussing up a storm at this point if i were him.

if he turns out to be the real-deal he'll have a disposition to match his skill. if he turns out to be a fake, at least hes a swell guy
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BlackFork
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Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2000 2:56 pm     Reply with quote
O.J. Simpson was a nice guy, too. He never got mad when he accused. The more guilt the nicer the facade.
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phreaknasty
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Location: bay area

PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2000 3:08 pm     Reply with quote
my post was meant to inject a little humor into this thread, not to weigh in on the already well documented supposition that monsignor pierre might not be most honest of men.
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pierre
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Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 285
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2000 3:19 pm     Reply with quote
Well as you hopefully have read, I am back and have gotten some further replies. However I can't seem to read them since the updating won't really update.

It is almost 1.30 am here and I will call it a night.

I will be back tomorrow as I promised and post the painting of mickes sketch and some other close ups of some paintings to show the painted structure and the brushstrokes.

Nite All.
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kig
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Joined: 26 May 2002
Posts: 28
Location: funland

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2000 2:09 am     Reply with quote
Well, umm, I think he's the real thing. at least doing a search on Pierre Hannah on google resulted in one abstract painter's site (Dani Slipicevic - http://www.crosswinds.net/~danislipa/ - a link to his site can in turn be found from http://www.kultur.umea.se/arena/lankar/konst_foto_museer.htm - the website of the town of Ume� with Ume�n artists on it) who has a link to Pierre's page. And from the text in the Friends section I assume he knows this guy in RL (thus seeing how he works and stuff).

And as for the car design sketches, I don't think they're photos of a real car. Reflections..

And photorealistic pieces usually are what the name implies, photorealistic. For which acrylics is a good platform imho, good reworkability and vivid colors.


Just my believe in people -two cents.

Disclaimer: Yes, everything is easy to forge on the 'net. Feh. Nevermind.

[This message has been edited by kig (edited October 05, 2000).]
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spooge demon
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Joined: 15 Nov 1999
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Location: Haiku, HI, USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2000 3:27 am     Reply with quote
Boy, Pierre, you have gotten some ink here.

I don't mean to speak as if you are not here, but to catch others up on what we have talked about...

Pierre and I shared a few emails about a year ago. He contacted me and was interested in how my work looked realistic but loose. He sent me the jpgs that you see on his page and a few others.

I wrote back that technically it looked pretty good. But I asked why do this? It was done 40 years ago and was done better and in many and more interesting ways by guys like Chuck Close and others. Reproducing aspects of flawed photography is part of the schtick. I asked for some high rez repros but Pierre could not produce them at the time.

It is a little like stacking Popsicle sticks or burning yourself with cigarettes. A very simple form of macho?

I don't have any doubt that these are paintings, copied mostly from photos. maybe the car from life. Pierre included some drawings and etchings that I thought were far more interesting.

So I ask again, Pierre, why? I just don't get it. I can see doing this to learn to precisely control your media, but then what?

I don't mean to be harsh, really, but I think you are really talented and should get on with things. Some of the ways you have simplified shape and used some very strong and unexpected color is very nice. There is some original perception here. You do know what is going on and at a very high level, I feel.

Ok, now the car design stuff. This is something I know and was trained for. The cars are not original; they are not even a concept car, but a production car. The cars are not symmetrical. A concept sketch is to show form, generally to the layman, but very specifically to a modeler.

The front view of the Oldsmobile is a tracing, and not a very good one at that. I truly do not understand why you did this.

Please help us understand what your intentions are.
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Joachim
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Joined: 18 Jan 2000
Posts: 1332
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2000 1:46 am     Reply with quote


Pierre, first of I want to apologise for taking your paintings as photos. I have seen what you've sent to micke and I believe you.
Very impressive technique-wise

Also, I think you did a great job on mickes sketch.

But, as I've stated before, and what spooge so very well said, I don't see the point of copying photos to that amount. Why not just use the photo instead. What I'm thinking is, you are really talented, but, you use you r talent to duplicate photos instead of actually creating something of your own.
That color job you did on mickes face was so nice and clean, also showing a lot of understanding, much more interessting to see in my opinion.

Hope you don't think I'm stupid, just a apology and a few of my thoughts aboout this the subject.

------------------
Joachim's Place
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Freddio
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Joined: 29 Dec 1999
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Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2000 1:58 am     Reply with quote
could we possibly see thi face for ourselve?

I hope its not a photo taken of someone in the same pose as Mickes sketch and scanned in and edited in photoshop

sorry for the harsh comments
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Muzman
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Joined: 12 Jan 2000
Posts: 675
Location: Western Australia

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2000 2:06 am     Reply with quote
I think all you guys checking him out brought down Crosswinds
Nothin but dead air coming back from there today
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amnesia
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Joined: 09 Feb 2000
Posts: 152
Location: brisbane QLD Australia

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2000 7:49 am     Reply with quote
Damn what a commotion. Funny how the longest threads are flames of some sort.

I havn't seen any of this guys pics since the crosswinds site didn't work and I only just noticed this thread, but I'd be interested to see what this all about.


------------------
,.-="`AmnesiA`"=-.,
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yoshi
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Joined: 29 Sep 2000
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2000 8:45 am     Reply with quote
concept - sounds like he's taking credit for DESIGNING that car.
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ceenda
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Joined: 27 Jun 2000
Posts: 2030

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2000 9:10 am     Reply with quote
Pierre:

If the work is genuine, my congratulations but I feel that your 'style' is hard to interpret and that you risk doing photo realistic pics that aren't as good as photos and hence perhaps lose the point somewhat (I myself am not an expert on things arty).

If the work is not genuine I'm sorry you lack the confidence to practice and gain respect through a genuine desire to do art.

At the end of the day, I don't know, I couldn't care less...

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Frost
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Joined: 12 Jan 2000
Posts: 2662
Location: Montr�al, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2000 9:36 am     Reply with quote
Hmm, maybe people will think I'm stupid, but I really do wish I could do realistic images as this. When you have such an understanding of light and geometry, you could make anything that pops into your mind realistic looking, and bringing images of my imagination to life is something I would love to do... unfortunately, the little knowledge I have gathered from my explorations in this domain just has me drawing up fake plastic overlit objects...
Note to self: Think matte.
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waylon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2000
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Location: Milwaukee, WI US

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2000 12:18 pm     Reply with quote
Well, Frost, being able to come up with photorealistic images off the top of your head and being able to copy a photo convincingly are two completely different things. I mean, granted, copying a photo perfectly takes quite a bit of skill (more so in traditional media), but it doesn't necessarily mean you can draw that well WITHOUT reference.

No offense intended toward you, Pierre. I'm just speaking generally here. Though I would like to see some of your original work - especially that repaint of Micke's pic.

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Anthony J
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Joined: 22 Oct 1999
Posts: 412
Location: Oakville

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2000 12:59 pm     Reply with quote
So when's Pierre going to post his colour job on Micke's image?
Joachim, maybe you could post the image?

I haven't seen Pierre say anything about it yet...i've read this whole thread, and i really want to see the proof!


------------------
---------------
Digital Painting Gallery http://anthonys.8m.com

"you must feel the force in order to use it Obi-Wan..."

[This message has been edited by Anthony J (edited October 10, 2000).]
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Muzman
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Joined: 12 Jan 2000
Posts: 675
Location: Western Australia

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2000 9:11 pm     Reply with quote
ok, it's official. Crosswinds is dead for me. No ping, nuthin'

if anyone has these pics cached could you mail them or host them? I'd love to see them
(it's a lot to ask, i know)
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Giant Hamster
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Joined: 22 Oct 1999
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:01 pm     Reply with quote
can i see what u did to mickie's pic? i really want to see, because the sketch that mickie did was awsome on its own! please?

------------------
-JameZ the Giant Hamster-
the Hamster Alliance
www.mp3.com/jamezthegh
AIM: Gianthmstr
Musician,2d/3d artist, programmer,overall guru :)
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dr . bang
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Joined: 07 Apr 2000
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Location: Den Haag, Holland

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:51 pm     Reply with quote
Pierre said he gonne for sleep, its been a few weeks, this is a really long sleep.
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Danny
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Joined: 27 Jan 2000
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Location: Alcyone, Pleiadians

PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2000 3:52 am     Reply with quote
This thread doesn't want to go away it seems.

Here's my 2 cents on the matter.

For a while I myself was concerned with getting my stuff to look more real than real. Just copying photographs blindly. I don't know where this useless fascination came from, but after a while I came to the conclusion that it wasn't much of a worthy challenge. The ability to render your images realistically is only a *small* fraction of the knowledge and skill that is required to make a top notch painting.
In retrospect I can 100% agree with how Spooge described the matter. There's not much of a point or validity to do so (especially nowadays with the digital medium where photo-manipulation would be a much better investment as opposed to labour-intensive copying). I do think that for a large part it's only to show off. A pissing contest? "my stuff looks more realistic than anyone elses" aha!!.. but at what cost.. In Pierre's case at the cost of credibility.

Wether or not Pierre is a fraud or the real thing, I personally don't care at all, for the very reason that most of the stuff he's showing on his website is totally uninteresting. Besides this, I find the overall quality of the images to be low.

Also, Frost... for once I have to say I think you're wrong. I don't find that doing such hyper-realism gets you very far in the long run. Not when doing images that are mirrors from real life events/objects etc. The only thing you'll gain is control over how to handle your media (as Spooge already pointed out). This is all real nice, but doesn't get you anywhere.

One last thing.. I'm not particularly interested in seeing Pierre's rendition of Micke's drawing if he does decide to post it. It's no challenge. There's no solid proof to be gained from such actions. I'd much rather see Pierre come up with a full scale (not icon size) Sci-Fi image. Something that has no direct obtainable reference in real life.
Pierre, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, I know I'm sounding harsh here. I'm not accusing you of anything. I simply don't find your work (or atleast that which you have allowed us to see) of enough interest to really care, with the exeption of some of your line work. I do hope you'll come around and do some stuff that'll be a little higher up the artistic ladder...


------------------
[email protected]

Trust in Trance
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micke
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Joined: 19 Jan 2000
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Location: Oslo/Norway

PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2000 5:25 am     Reply with quote
Were just wondering why Pierre
have'nt posted his painting based on my sketch yet. He sent it to me and it looked great He also sent me
some close-ups of some of his paintings that are displayed on his website and i can tell
you they are not fakes. I've appologised to him. I don't wanna post them for him, so i leave it to him.

-Micke

------------------
-Mikael Noguchi-

http://www.katode.org/noguchi/

[This message has been edited by micke (edited October 11, 2000).]
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Rinaldo
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Location: Adelaide, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2000 7:15 am     Reply with quote
Umm... I don't know how apropriate this is but I tried having a look at that original pic that pierre posted and I had a look at the index where the image was listed and what appears to be a painted ver of micke's face is there. I'm thinking that he might of been going to post but seeing as things have been down here an all. Idunno...I'm a bit unsure how apropriate it is to go behind your back pierre but it might stop people getting all jumped up and clear the air a bit. I think the image is girl.jpg
http://www.crosswinds.net/~pierrehannah/forum/

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Sumaleth
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2000 7:33 am     Reply with quote
Ahhh, how quickly we like to force our own values onto other people.

Once again I'll play the part of devils advocate - consider the following;

There are people who get absolutely no enjoyment out of painting or creating images in any form.

There are also people who get the most enjoyment out of being as creative as they can be by painting images purely from their mind.

Both are valid opinions of art.

There are also likely to be a whole range of equally valid variations between those two extremes. One of these variations would be the people who get the most enjoyment out of trying to copy photographs as accurately as possible.

These people do exist and Photorealism is a well established art genre. I have to admit some interest in this field too having read some books on the movement and being totally amazed at some of the work produced in this style. I wouldn't paint them myself but I love looking at good examples of the genre.

Are these paintings worth less artistically than images painted entirely from the mind? That is -purely- a personal judgement call, there is no right or wrong to art. If someone gets more enjoyment out of trying to accurately replicate a photograph than drawing a scene from their imagination then no one else should be able to tell them what they like has no value.

Everyone should be free to find what they most like doing and just do it.

Row.
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WacoMonkey
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2000 10:10 am     Reply with quote
Danny- Who in God's name decided that Science-Fiction illustration is the pinnacle of the "artistic ladder" (a reprehensible concept to begin with)? How many of the great artists throughout history could have met your challenge to prove their worth as an artist? Not many, I would expect, as with some notable exceptions they were artists, not designers or fantasy illustrators, and more concerned with interpreting reality as they saw it rather than conceptualizing fantasy. I know many great artists who couldn't design a spaceship to save their lives, and I am yet humbled by their talent. To illustrate something completely "out of your head" is a specialized set of skills and not a requirement for artistic expression.

As for Pierre, I have no doubt that his work is genuine. I've seen the other work on his site, and there is plenty of 'obviously' painted work there of high enough quality. Why would any one with anywhere near that skill level want to pass off photographs as paintings? Besides, copying photographs is not terribly hard to do, it just takes a decent eye, exactitude and patience. In fact, as with most of you who went to college, I would expect, we had to do much the same exercise in first year, using gridding or projection.
As to the automotive concept sketches, having been a car designer I can tell you they're obviously not, they're renderings of existing cars. Pierre, don't do yourself a disservice, they're competent renderings, call them what they are. The word "concept" assumes invention. I think we can chalk that up to simple ignorance.

Plenty of people on this forum have been interpreting from photographs as exercises to improve their skill, and nobody complains. Pierre just does it very well. does he have aspirations beyond that? I don't know. Do anything enough and you're bound to get bored with it and move on, or discover something new in the process.
I also don't think we can just globally invalidate hyper-realism either, unless it's just achieved through mechanical means. It's simply the inverse extreme of impressionism. I've seen Chuck Close's work in person, and like it or not, it is damned impressive. So yeah, it was over in the seventies. That just means it won't sell to the coffee house crowd, not that it's not worth exploring. Who knows? Maybe this will lead him to something new? Hell, I started out copying Joe Johnston sketches, Ron Lemen started out painting over Elvgren. I think he's proved well enough that he's not a liar (something he shouldn't have to defend), lets not start attacking his chosen mode of expression too. I don't remember him claiming to be a genius anywhere.
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Isric
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Location: Calgary AB

PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2000 10:25 am     Reply with quote
Danny, I don't think I've heard anything more rediculous than what you said about drawing from reality, or life

"The only thing you'll gain is control over how to handle your media (as Spooge already pointed out). This is all real nice, but doesn't get you anywhere."

It doesn�t get you anywhere? What the hell are you thinking?! You look on this forum and for every true artist there are 5 or 6 kids who have no idea what they are doing. These poor souls can draw space ships and aliens and whatever else they want, but everything the do looks like dung!
I draw fantasy art mainly, just because it offers a lot to draw when you can�t think of anything, but if I couldn�t draw worth dick, no one would like it. Drawing from life is what made all the Forum Superstars what they are today. To say that this daily exercise doesn�t �..get you anywhere�? I don�t know what you were thinking, but at the risk of offending weak-minded bystanders, you are wrong. Dead wrong.
That is like saying that carbon dioxide isn�t necessary for plants to grow, or that humans don�t really need sunlight anymore, so you can just push that aside.
Damn, what an ignorant statement.
(PS, I know that our society no longer accepts it when you say someone is �wrong�, but common artistic knowledge and common sense demand that I break that terrible rule)

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Anthony J
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2000 10:57 am     Reply with quote
I for the most part think that the entire idea of this thread has absolutely changed into bashing eachother about perceptions on art, and angles taken on what is the right way and the wrong way of creating art.

Pierre did Micke's image...a very good job indeed.

Let's leave it at that.

------------------
---------------
Digital Painting Gallery
http://anthonys.8m.com

"you must feel the force in order to use it Obi-Wan..."
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black_fish
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2000 1:00 pm     Reply with quote
Sure.
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nori
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2000 1:21 pm     Reply with quote
quote
Quote:
Understanding the light source, shadow, radiosity, reflections, refractions, and many other observations which require intense study and mathematical equations is what many people (mostly new to art) forget to do with realism.


what mathematical equations?
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Liquid!
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Location: Los Angeles, California

PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2000 1:34 pm     Reply with quote
I just got a quick break and noticed that this thread still hasn't died!

Thanks for posting the close-ups and Micke's girl on your site, Pierre. They all look great, and are obviously painted as you'd been saying all along. Personally, I prefer the more interpretative look used on Micke's girl pic than the hyper realism, however, I can see the usefulness or even joy in doing photorealistic images. Either way, I wouldn't put a value judgement on it, since it would seem to be merely a matter of preference in my opinion. Although I do think that a different set of skills is required for each discipline.

I would change the 'concept car' section on your site, since that seems to be clearly misleading. Either way, as mentioned before, I'm glad we have another very talented addition to this board!

Just one more person to learn from!

I guess there's going to be a slew of apologies coming...

-c

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