[the_monkey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Giant Hamster:
Awe and Solar: Ya'll don't know shit bout me.

---

getting old...

[Giant Hamster]

Monkey: Why? I'm God...and this is a debate about me. You act as though I'm not. I'm being completely serious when I say that I am infact THE God almighty.

[SWANYDSPIN]

As I said before, lets say hamans have invented over 1000 gods, why noy make giant hamster one? it's just as believable as all the others. Hes going to die for our sins. Aren't you!

[Ilsoap]

Here's a little something I was thinking about. On searching the Internet, I've found lots of material under the topic of "Atheism vs. Christianity" or "Judaism vs. Christianity" or "Insert Religion Here vs. Christianity". However, I've never yet found anything that compares two religions where one is NOT Christianity. Say, "Islam vs. Buddhism" or "Baha'i vs. Scientology".

Does anybody know of any sites that DO compare to non-Christian religions? I'd be interested to see them.

P.S. Giant Hamster, the only evidence that you could in any way be God is the fact that galaxies all have a vague resemblance to that little wheel hamsters run on. And even that is circumstantial. Give it a rest.

[Giant Hamster]

"P.S. Giant Hamster, the only evidence that you could in any way be God is the fact that galaxies all have a vague resemblance to that little wheel hamsters run on. And even that is circumstantial. Give it a rest."

Oh, thanks! So...Now: I, GOD, have to be bound to your expectations? I move in mysterious ways, fuckhead. Oh no, I said a bad word!! Well, dumbfuck...I INVENTED the FUCKING word!!!! So you give it a rest or I'll fucking famine you all again.

[ruler protractor pen penc]

oh my god!

anyway, i think if i ever have kids, i would teach them some kindd of harmless religion untill they grow up, understand that they don't need it anymore, and eventualy grow out of it....

i think humans create god, then at a certain time in their life we should kill it...or something like that.

[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: ruler ]

[Liser Studios]

although i didn't read this whole thread, i just have one question:
why do people think religion has been proven false? Evolution has never been proven true! People don't understand that evolution is still a theory, they think it's truth.
Anyways, I know there's more than what we see out there. When I was younger I saw demons before, and I used to hear them every night. That stuff is out there, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not really there. There's lots of other things you don't see that you believe exist.

[Awetopsy]

Hey, Ilsoap: thanx for the corrections there. your right on most things.. actually the scripture I was looking for about the God mourning the loss of Lucifer was Ezekiel 28: 11 - 19, where the King of Tyre is likened to Lucifer.

Martin Rebas: I havent forgotten your question. Ive been thinking about it.

The Devil:
According to the scripture,(John 10:10) the devil has the ability to steal to kill and to destroy, He also has the power to lie.

He has no creative ability, he only has the power to pervert what is already in place.

He is listed as an angel, which has wings so I assume he can fly, walk, whatever an angel can do. There is evidence that throughout scripture that suggests that angels can materialize or teleport.

He is not omnipresent. The common misconception here is that God and the Devil are equal players struggling for Power, this is not so. The Devil was defeated when the Christ, an innocent, was put to death. Lucifer is a mere angel which the bible lists as being lower than human.

most of your examples in your question fit under "steal, kill and destroy" ie. "Could he create fires or natural disasters? Could he stop them? Could he obliterate a bible? Could he hurt a fly?"

You asked "Could he, say, heal the sick in an attempt to make himself more popular?" There have been accounts where certain satanism cults had miracles resembling healings, but the effects were normally only temporary and usually when the sickness/injury came back it was worse than before. Although, these are eyewitness accounts.

The devil cannot read your mind. He can influence you by suggesting things to your spirit, but thats all.

The idea is this. Anybody who has given themselves to Christ is under protection from the devil and his devices, the Devil no longer has power over them.
The devil doesnt really care if people worship him, as long as they arent worshipping God.

{edit} I dont actually spend too much time thinking about the Devil, because I dont thinks hes all that important.

[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: Awetopsy ]

[rubbersharkman]

had a thought...

faith is more like a seed and less like a box.

Skeptics of religion think faith is a box that you can open and look at the contents and understand from the outside whether or not it is worth trying. This is a false principle.

Faith is more like a seed. No matter how carefully and meticulously you disect it from the outside, you'll never find the fruit that way. Faith is something you have to live to understand, something you have to follow to know. You have to plant the seed in your heart by honest open minded study and meditation and faithful prayer coupled with honest effort to follow the teachings, this is how you grow the seed into a tree and find the fruit, not by cutting it up.

Peole who do not have faith don't understand its value.

[Giant Hamster]

:::Tree bursts out of chest::: AHHHHH!!!!!! OH SHIT!!!!!!!

[edraket]

Ah the seed.
I went to a church once. This guy told me that I was but a seed and knew nothing but with their help I would grow to be a beautifull plant etc. etc.
I thought.."hmm..yes you seem like a plant to me..But I'd rather be a person."
I don't think I ever went back.

[Giant Hamster]

I'm not liking the new Prodigy album. =(

I'm listening to the live version of the songs from shows and crap...It's pretty weak...and prodigy is one of those bands where their live shows rock more than the album...so this scares me:

Nuclear - Is a horrible punk song. *gag*
Trigger - Is just stupid sounding...maybe the studio version will be good.
Always Outnumbered - Sounds alright...the quality of the mp3 is bad so I can't really tell...but it sounds interesting.
No Souveniers - difficult to find...I haven't heard it yet.
Baby's Got a Temper - Sounds like the fat of the land + punk annoyingness... =\
Removed song from Fat of the land - Can't even find a track name for it...

I'm unhappy overall...and that concludes my review.

[ruler protractor pen penc]

rubbershark...i remember someone telling me something like that when i was in 8th grade. he used to say " well, your either believe in christianity or you just never meant to". he said that i was meant to go to hell . he pissed the hell out of me. what disgusting creatures..

[Awetopsy]

ruler: thats horrible!! There is a stupid doctrine out there that states pre-destiniation... that is absolutely wrong.

couple of quotes from bible to prove that guy wrong.

(John 10:9) I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

(Acts 2:21) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

(Romans 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [he was talking to everybody here]

There is no pre-destination.. that is a very dangerous doctrine and its absolutely wrong.

God gave us a choice:
(Deuteronomy 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

[Shep]

Couple questions: Does anyone draw a distinction between "religion" and knowing Christ? And also I am very uninformed about the Baha'i faith, but already have some questions for it. Like how can you call Jesus a prophet when He claims deity (either making him a liar and invalidating His truth, or agreeing that He was indeed God on earth) and warns of false prophets coming and going? Do those that follow Baha'i agree with whats written in all sacred texts?

[Awetopsy]

Shep: I do make a distinction between Religion and knowing christ.

You might ask Steven Stahlberg about Ba'hai.

and Dhabih has some links to Ba'hai webpages in his links section here:

http://www.sijun.com/dhabih/links/index.html

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Awetopsy ]

[Shep]

How would you describe the difference and I'm hoping that Stahlberg will also respond : )
Thank you for the link as well.

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Shep ]

[Awetopsy]

How would I describe the difference? Well, in order for anyone to understand they have to experience it. Religion makes people stupid. (Im gonna get flamed for that) It makes them believe things without really knowing what it is they are believing. Knowing Christ is not even remotely similar.... Knowing Christ is like being part of a family. Its having a best friend who wont leave you or let you down. With Christ there is hope for a better future and you are able to see past all the corruption in this world.
(Im speaking outta my heart now.... not outta my "logical thinking")

"Religion" doesnt offer a relationship with "their Messiah".

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Awetopsy ]

[Steven Stahlberg]

quote

Quote:

how can you call Jesus a prophet when He claims deity (either making him a liar and invalidating His truth, or agreeing that He was indeed God on earth) and warns of false prophets coming and going? Do those that follow Baha'i agree with whats written in all sacred texts?

Ouch, I'm not the right person to answer this, must be a hundred thousand guys who know this better than me, Rat might be one of them, but since you asked for me by name I'll tell you what I think - which in no way can be guaranteed to perfectly coincide with the official Baha'i teachings (so check out those websites for a more accurate answer)...

IMHO Jesus was like a perfect mirror, reflecting the sun - God's message. We can't be shown directly by God himself, it would be like an ant talking to a human,

So according to the teachings of the latest prophet, Baha'ullah, there have been a number of such 'perfect mirrors' or messengers all throughout history, which makes sense - the opposite, that there's only been one, makes less logical sense if you think about it.
Now about the Trinity and Jesus stating that he and the Father are the same, I don't know. I find the Trinity very hard to believe in, since it seems this whole concept only appeared later, during discussions among 'scientists' who were taking every single word of the Bible as literally as possible. I personally choose to regard the Bible as something written and re-written by fallible humans, but based on various messages from God.

Actually I see all the other sacred texts (from the major religions based on messengers/prophets) in the same light; first the message has been 'tuned' to that particular locale and period and culture - and the developmental level of humanity in general - then it has most likely been more or less distorted over time by human error.

About knowing a false prophet, well that seems fairly simple - except in a very few cases.
In 99.9999...% of all cases a false prophet will do obviously immoral stuff like keep a harem of sex slaves, do drugs, or ask for money from his believers, maybe even kill, and in general just live very comfortably among his flock. He will not make any sacrifices, he will break at least one of his own rules, and his teachings will be illogical and contain obviously 'wrong' stuff like "It's ok to kill a policeman if he comes snooping around"... His/her teachings will normally not spread very far. Jesus said the same thing I think, "by their actions you shall know them" or something like that...

[Rat]

Sorry. Can't help. Steven said just about all I know.

And, hey, I'm not a guy!

[Shep]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steven Stahlberg:
I find the Trinity very hard to believe in, since it seems this whole concept only appeared later, during discussions among 'scientists' who were taking every single word of the Bible as literally as possible. I personally choose to regard the Bible as something written and re-written by fallible humans, but based on various messages from God.

---

I think the trinity was coined in the fourth century if I remember correctly. Now my next question is where you base the idea of the Bible being warped over time by human err or interference? I'm sure your familiar with the dead sea scrolls, which of course does not credit the entire Bible, but if the same method of transcribing was used for those why should you believe that in less than 200 years (the next set of manuscripts found) would differ anymore than the original letters?

I'm not so sure it makes more sense to agree with Baha'ullah, knowing that there is an evil agenda at hand. Something God warned about. Christ says, I AM, the Father and I are One, noone comes to the Father, but through Me, etc. And then claims He will return once more to this planet. Why would a 'perfect mirror', refute this testimony and cause strife later on as another prophet?

Pardon all these questions, this thread has been an excellent discussion, and my curiosity is bounding.

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Shep ]

[Unsound]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steven Stahlberg:
Now about the Trinity and Jesus stating that he and the Father are the same, I don't know. I find the Trinity very hard to believe in, since it seems this whole concept only appeared later, during discussions among 'scientists' who were taking every single word of the Bible as literally as possible.

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I was trying to make this point in an earlier post. I think it is in the middle of page 4.

[maceface]

i tried to start reading this thread today...as i really enjoy arguing over this topic. Although ill sit this one out i have a funny story that happened a few days ago. I was walking down the street...and minding my own business...so this guy in a suit walks up...i knew immeiatly he was going to try and push something on me. So he walks up and says "have you ever thought about join so and so church of christ?" and well this cought me off guard cuz usually people ask me for money. So i was like...nah thats ok. and well his next comment was totally out of place and really stupid. "Ah so your not interested in going to heaven" WHAT THE FUCK!?!?! i never said anything like that to him...i just didnt want to go to his church. I have never been more surprised at something that someone has said. Reguarding church or not...that had to have been the weirdest.
anywho...thats my story :P

[Steven Stahlberg]

Shep, I know nothing about the Dead Sea Scrolls, or the 'next' set of documents found. But the only way I could trust every word of such writings were if I knew it was written or dictated by the prophet himself, and never transcribed. (As is the case with Baha'ullah.)
We know from the differences between the NT gospels that the writers were merely human, and COULD err, and leave things out.

Plus, all the obvious bull in the OT, like Genesis for instance. But we're just going round in a circle there, I've said what I have to say about that, check my previous posts. You feel you must believe EVERY word of the Bible because SOME of them are true, fine, that's your business. I just know, as surely as I know my name, as I know I have a brain, two arms, two legs and stand (or sit) here anchored by gravity to a spinning ball of rock circling a fusion reactor in an unimagenably vast emptiness, that evolution does exist and is easily proven to anyone with an open mind, and that Genesis is folklore.

If I'm wrong about that then I can't trust any of my senses, any of my knowledge - reality becomes a lie and anything and nothing might be true. I could be dreaming all this.
Do you know what solipsism is? That could be the logical longterm conclusion of not being able to trust your senses - the only thing you could trust then would be your own thoughts, and your own existence. Nothing else could be proven to exist. Well according to some it still can't, but as long as I don't have any truly overpowering proof that my senses are wrong, I'll just go with the flow and believe in the outside universe.

[Awetopsy]

Steven: what differences in the Gospels?

If you and I looked at the same grey cube and were asked to write about it, we would both write about different things about that cube because we see from different angles, and we notice different things.

Ill still hold to the fact that every apparent inconsistency, in the bible, has an explanation. Especially when one goes back to the original languages.

maceface: people like that drive me nuts.. they are the ones who make christianity look bad.

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Awetopsy ]

[Giant Hamster]

Jesus was a good friend of mine.

All the words he spoke weren't exactly true...but he was sure one *ahem* helluva guy. Could fit a whole melon in his mouth. no kiddin'.

[Shep]

Steven, I never implied that I do or don't take every word in the Bible literally. My questions revolve around Christ in the NT as recorded by several different eye witness accounts. The dead sea scrolls were found in a cave in the face of some cliffs by a shepherd in 1947. They were encased in clay jars and contained texts from the Bible that date (linquistic, historical, paleographic as well as C-14) back to the third century B.C. to 68 C.E. The amazing thing is the scrolls contain all the text of the Hebrew Bible except Esther. There are minor errors but the scrolls show us just how diligently those that wrote and rewrote the Book were. My point is, don't grab on to an idea because it seems like it's an obvious conclusion. Many people will say they don't trust the Bible what so ever because of its age, then they turn to history class and read all about Plato without questioning any of the text surrounding him when indeed the old texts backing whatever he wrote come nowhere near the amount of evidence in and outside of the Bible.

[Steven Stahlberg]

That's interesting, and just goes to show that most of the NT is probably very accurately reported indeed. I agree. But as awetopsy said, two people will differ even in their descriptions of a simple grey cube. That's my point. Those writers were just people, like you and me.

Furthermore Jesus very often spoke in hyberbole and poetic metaphore. When he said he was The Way he didn't mean he was an actual physical dirt road. When he said he was The Light he didn't mean a real physical flame. When he stated "nobody gets to God other than through me", he could have meant "me and the other messengers" but refrained from saying that last bit because he knew it would have been confusing - too much knowledge too soon. Most likely, at the time, he was more concerned with the prevailing old religion that he was trying to overthrow, rather than something happening 2000 years later, and he probably felt that some strong simple words were in order, to make the simple folk around him understand.
Also - IMO any teaching just can't last forever; such teachings and writings will be perfectly suited for the time and place they appear in, and parts of them will be timeless, but there will unavoidably be parts that become dated after a couple thousand years. How could it be otherwise? Humanity is constantly, slowly but inevitably, evolving, changing, maturing. We're not the same human race that started WW1, for instance - that kind of collective insanity is forever passed. There are other forms of it still around, but not as widespread and strong as before.

In any case it could be argued that all Messengers are the same entity reborn, and so the word "Me" used by a messenger would take on a different meaning than for you and me.

[Lunatique]

Steven-- I found your remark about how the human race isn't what it was very interesting.

Do you guys believe that with the way human civilization is going(science, technology, less insanity, global village..etc), there will never be another prophet/messiah type ever again? I mean, our world has become way too scientific and skeptical for someone who claims to be one to be taken seriously.

Unless, mind-blowing miracles takes place.

[Awetopsy]

Hmmm, I get the impression that what I stated wasnt taken the way it was meant.

What I was trying to say was that even tho Steven and I might write different things about a grey cube doesnt mean either of us are incorrect. Steven may write about the corners and edges while I might write about the faces and the values of grey. Both are correct, and both are about the very same thing although they differ slightly in perspective.
The Gospels are much the same.

Here are some interesting facts about the Gospels.
1) Matthew and John were the only two Gospel writers who were actually present during the time of the events of Jesus.
2) the Gospels were written some years after the death, burial and ressurection of Jesus.
3) each Gospel writer wrote their account of what happened with no prior knowledge that the others were going to do the same.

Steven: you said "...Most likely, at the time, he was more concerned with the prevailing old religion that he was trying to overthrow,...". This is actually not so, Jesus was not trying to overthrow Judeaism. The whole point of Judeaism was that there was a coming messiah. Jesus was the fulfillment of Judeaism. Christianity is not an offshoot of Judeaism, it is a result of Judeaism being fulfilled.
The whole old testament points toward the Christ, the whole new testament points back to the Christ. The term "christian" wasnt coined till several years after Jesus when people needed a term to call those who followed after Christ's teachings.