[gLitterbug]

You know, reading some of your posts make me absolutely pissed off, while parts of others make me think it might just be a misunderstanding due to being online. I don�t know what it is, but I�m sure of one thing at least, that you have one type of prejudice yourself, namely that you think of a person being anti-american and claiming to know everything about America as soon as they don�t just take your word for how things are.

I think actually this whole gun debate isn�t really about America itself, but about the fact that if there is widespread gun ownership, it�s bound to increase accidents and not-so-accidents that lead to someone being shot.

As for the being lectured thing, I don�t know how everyone else sees your posts here, but when I read them you really sound like someone who knows it all.

I�m not into foot-fetish, so just let me say that you mixed up something again there. The fact that I don�t know you is hardly ignorance, rather than the fact that we live far apart and know each other only by some posts on the forum. As to the quote with the image of Americans, it doesn�t matter if you are like that in real life or not, what I and everyone else here see of you are your posts and as I said above, to me they sound alot like someone on a high horse. If that is a wrong impression or not I just can�t fully figure out yet I guess.

Quite some of my actual online friends are American and I get along with them just fine and I never offended them with anything I said about America at all. I think that if you ask some people that know me better, you�d find that I�m not nearly as ignorant and intolerant as you claim. I think if you really got that impression about me you haven�t met much people that are truely ignorant and intolerant. But as I already said in the last discussion, those hardly get into debates like this at all, because they take their opinion for granted and don�t give a shit what someone they don�t like and don�t take serious thinks anyways.

I honestly wish I could just not reply and not care, but I have that problem that I want to get along with pretty much everyone and believe they aren�t that bad at all (I think I got that from my dad) and it takes a whole lot until I give up and just count that person into the pool of idiots that are not to be listened to. I just hope I can get rid of that habit at least a bit over time.

Should you really come to Austria and stay in Vienna for a bit, I guess we could meet up there, weapons being not allowed and all Maybe we�ll even become buddies and laugh about our post-fights, who knows, I never rule anything out.

P.S.: You sure you don�t mix up Austria with Belgium/Switzerland if you talk about longing for chocolates?

[Impaler]

[Drew]

Oh COME ON, you can't start a fight like that and then be friends. This is worse than the hate/love at Eatpoo.

This arguement is much ado about nothing. All that has changed is that you don't have to physically run away while someone is trying to kill you. Other than that, the same conditions to be able to defend yourself with lethal force will still apply. You can't legally shoot people unless they're trying to kill or seriously injure you.

Max, you asked why the law was being made and who would profit from it. You obviously have something in mind, care to share?

[Jimmyjimjim]

I personally agree with Chris Rock on the gun control issue. Make guns legal, just make bullets REALLY expensive.

Anybody will think twice about shooting someone if a bullet is $5,000.00

Sounds silly, but makes sense.

[Ragnarok]

[Gort]

Sorry for the delay . . . was out most of the weekend, and it's lunchbreak here, so . . .

gLitterbug:

You're right - it's very difficult or just damn near impossible at times to properly convey the inflections of one's views through written word, and they can easily be misunderstood; I fall prey to that fault as well when I read things too. Reading back I can see how you might think I am a "know it all", but usually I try to preface my statements (save those that fall under some reasonable grain of truth), with things like "in my opinion" or "I think" or "believe". I also try to be very straightforward with my views, which may be easily misinterpretated. I want nothing more than to be heard (or read, as is the case) and with attention; that isn't to say I want you to agree, but it's easier to at least consider and respect a counterpoint when it's delivered with some diplomacy and consideration.

So don't write me off or dump me in the pool of idiots. Yet.

Guns don't scare me, although not adhering to safety and responsible use of guns does. When we moved to suburbia, I gave my gun away (to someone I deem highly responsible), because my daughter was the young, exploratory type; I didn't want her or any of her friends to become a statistic (in spite of the fact it was locked securely away). Besides, I didn't need the gun anymore; I didn't feel the threat on my existence anymore, because I was someplace where my car wasn't getting broken into, was getting hassled for money and hearing gunshots on national holidays. For the record, I grew up around guns; I was using them since I was 6 years old (hunting and sport ), so I've alway considered myself a responsible owner. Now that doesn't make me an expert, but I just wanted to add that, because I am anything but some trigger happy, chaw chewin' cowboy.

Quite frankly I'd rather see our state governments mandate strictor means of obtaining a license to drive a 3500 lb automobile. It's my understanding that Germany has one of the hardest exams for getting a driver's license; American could definitely learn from that given the number of annual highway fatalies that we have here. No, I am not comparing guns to cars, just the safety issues therein.

----

Ragnarok:

fal�la�cies
A false notion.
A statement or an argument based on a false or invalid inference.
Incorrectness of reasoning or belief; erroneousness.
The quality of being deceptive.

From Dictionary.com. The first two definitions couldn't be more accurate in defining my meaning and use of the word in the context of prejudice thinking.
_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[Drew]

[Ragnarok]

[gLitterbug]

I started writing a reply about a case in Austria where a boy stabbed another in school, but somehow I couldn�t get it to sound right and convey what I meant to say.

Trying to put it simple without the boy story. I don�t know many Austrians if any at all that would even carry a knife along. Sure I don�t exactly have much friends from violent circles or live in a bad area. Still I would say that the random Austrian doesn�t even think about having to protect himself from someone else, especially not with a knife even less a gun. A guy I went to school with told me once that they have a gun in their household. When I asked him why, he said its for protection from burglars. Honestly I thought that is the most ridiculous thing I�ve ever heard. The place he lives is nowhere even near a bad area and I doubt his house will ever be broken into, much less by someone armed. What I worry about more than a burglar is guys like him, that seem to be affraid and have a gun for feeling better even when there is really no reason at all. So I have to say I�m very glad it�s not easy to get a gun here and therefore all the guys who would make nothing but trouble with them don�t bother to get one.

What probably got me most with the quote max gave about the new law is this "...The new law would allow them to use deadly force even if they could have fled..". That part to me sounds like you are allowed to play judge rather than get to safety without hurting someone. While I do believe someone mugging you while having some kind of weapon deserves to be punished, I think that shooting him instead of getting away from him makes you even worse.

Gort: It seems that even if we attack each other now and then and go below the belt, we still are open for talks, I appreciate that. Having had several impressions of you I can at least say I never truly had the impression of you being a raving mad gun totin' hat wearing moron. Actually I was surprised when I read the topic first and you said the new law is good.
What I am interested in now is the comment about the driver�s license you made. How big of a vehicle can you ride over there? We in Austria have several categories like A for motorcycle, B for car(and certain small trucks), C for trucks(and then addons for bigger trucks to that one, with some being only available after having got experience in a job I think). I heard from others that the C License Course and exam are getting a lot harder(apart from being more expensive of course)than the B ones. I personally wouldn�t feel good in a truck, so I decided to be satisfied with B.

[Impaler]

I was doing some research. Turns out, guns are dangerous and kill 35,000 people a year (source) and injure 60-100,000. What's even more interesting is that during the surveyed years, suicides consistently outnumbered violent crimes.

Cars are dangerous too, killing 42,000 people a year.

9-11 killed 2700 people. Hurricane Katrina killed 1000. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have killed in aggregate around 2500 soldiers. If terrorists were killing 80,000 people a year, you can be pretty damn sure that we'd be in World War 3 by now.

Not really making any arguments here. Just saying, is all.
_________________
QED, sort of.

[Joe84]

in the words of chris rock, its not gun legislation we need. Its bullet control! If one bullet was worth $5000. who would shoot anyone?

[Gort]

[Capt. Fred]

A gun is just a lump of materials designed damage things. It's not like a saw, which is destructive but can be used constructively. It's just an obscenely destructive and otherwise impractical object.

My knee-jerk common-sense response to the issue is: To someone someone that doesn't take guns for granted, and does not find their power ordinary, they are bizarre destructive things which clearly should not belong to ordinary people.

'The right to bear arms' is yet more surreal, and I don't expect to understand.
What next, 'The right to keep biological weapons in the fridge!'?

[Impaler]

Well, maybe. If the King of England was after my milk and cookies..
_________________
QED, sort of.

[Gort]

Or your tea, laddy!!


_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[Capt. Fred]

I do like my tea rather

[gLitterbug]

Nobody steals our tea...and LIVES!

[Ragnarok]

I prefer coffee...
_________________
"Ever forward, my darling wind." -Master Yuppa
Seigetsu

[Drew]

[Drew]

[Drew]

[Jimmyjimjim]

Strangely, "the right to bear arms" is something I completely agree with, (regardless of my ludicrous "Chris Rock" last post, which was a joke.

I think everyone here has really missed the mark as far as the REAL reason we have the right to bear arms.

People that don't live in America (and some natives I might add) often don't know that we were given that civil liberty in the constitution partially as a way to keep the government in check.

We had just come from revolution, and by letting people keep thier weapons, they put in place a way for citizens to challenge the new government in the future (if need be).

I'd like to keep that.

[�yvind]

The law says that in the state of Florida you may carry a gun and shoot someone to death if you feel threatened, an evil satre is enough to make someone feel threatened. What if someone with an illness walked down the street and was gunned down because someone felt they were threatened by the decease? That wouldn't be right!
_________________
I have a dream! It has yellow spots and is insane!

[stacy]

Anyone who is so feebleminded that they can't discern between a "threat" of disease and the real threat of someone weilding a deadly weapon which constitutes a REAL threat against family, person or property, should NOT under any circumstances carry a weapon.
THAT's why I HAVE weapons and you DON'T.

Regardless of how you like to pose and posture as a well adjusted, level headed individual, it's clear you really are not. Ergo... no weapons for you. And that the way it SHOULD be.

[Capt. Fred]

"People� often don't know that we were given that civil liberty in the constitution partially as a way to keep the government in check.

�by letting people keep thier weapons, they put in place a way for citizens to challenge the new government in the future (if need be). "

This is funny haha

[Gort]

Respectfully I must ask: how is that funny? I mean, seriously tell me why you think that's funny.
_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[watmough]

it IS funny...'cause there is no way in hell me and my buddies with guns are ever gonna stop George Bush.

Like I said before...its a meaningless POLITICAL right....one that doesnt improve my quality of life in ANY way.
There are other basic human rights I would much rather see in the Constitution,like the right to food,or the right to housing...or medical care...instead we get the right to bear arms to keep the government in check?...LOL

[Max]

What about voting for the government you want instead of fighting against it??
USA is a democracy. What you are talking about sounds like a revolution of a dictatorship.
Anyway. That has nothing to do with this law. right?

[Drew]

[Jimmyjimjim]