[Drew]

[Impaler]

Frankly, I'm not buying the guns vs. dictatorship bit. Back in 1787, when the worst you faced was a cannon and a musket, it may have made sense. Hell, we fought back the English army with nothing more. It made sense back when all combat was fought man-to-man and guerilla tactics were still shameful. Military technology and tactics have changed slightly since then.

What chance does your 12-gauge have of taking down a C-130 or an M1 Abrams? What chances do an untrained populace armed with hunting rifles abd handguns have against the largest, best armed and trained military force in the world?

After all, just how well did those folks at Waco do? What about the farmers in Shay's rebellion? We all know just how victorious the South was in 1865.
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QED, sort of.

[gLitterbug]

I wish we Austrians had guns at the time Hitler invaded us. We could�ve easily prevented that whole dilemma back then.

[Jimmyjimjim]

[Impaler]

[Gort]

Hey gLitterbug, do you want butter on the popcorn? Coke or Sprite?
_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[gLitterbug]

Lots of butter and the coke please. Oh and I brought some chocolate for you.

[Ragnarok]

Drew, I don't have numbers to back up my statements, sorry. I haven't studied this subject that far because it doesn't really affect me.
Maybe that banes me from further discussing the matter, but I still think it's a matter of perspective and culture. Here in Europe we haven't had that right and so we doesn't consider it natural. Also that means having a gun is unusual and most of the times illegal, so the majority of robbers just have a knife and a bad attitude. Here in spain people rob too, but we don't hear of many rapes or murders in rob attempts, maybe it's because robbers here also have a different mindset.

About the guns... well, I don't really think you are going to stop an army with that. Here in Spain, in 1936, Franco took the army against the government and won. People against Franco fought with everything they got and lost.
Nowadays an army is more powerful than then, why would weapons avoid this happening again?
I strongly believe citizens should keep an eye over their government and our laws must have a way for us to change things. Nowadays it's much more difficult to have another sublevation because our system is stronger against that kind of threats.
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"Ever forward, my darling wind." -Master Yuppa
Seigetsu

[Drew]

Rag, I like hearing different viewpoints, but I think it's important to keep facts and opinions separate. I'm sure that this issue will be looked at differently by people of different cultures, but just because someone disagrees with the way someone else does things doesn't mean it's wrong.

To those of you that think small arms can't stop a modern army, you may be right. But not so many years ago, one man with a slow shooting rifle killed Kennedy. With most of the world being quite vocal about their hatred of Bush and being sure that he's a step away from being a dictator, it surprises me to see people being against US civilians wanting to keep their weapons.

A fight against the government would probably not require people to go into the streets with handguns and modified farming instruments. Just as brandishing a gun may convince a criminal to flee, showing an army that's been ordered to take over their own country that you're willing to fight for it may convince them that doing a dictator's work isn't what they want to be doing.

You're right Impaler, the South lost and fighting against a tyrannical government is pointless. I guess that fight the US had with England was a waste of time, eh?

[Gort]

Not that I'm trying to keep this thing stirred up, but I stumbled across this article, and I felt it was good representation of my earlier stated views:

". . .what felons fear most is not the police or the prison system, but their fellow citizens, who might be armed. One inmate told me, "When you gonna rob somebody you don't know, it makes it harder because you don't know what to expect out of them."

---
and this from the same place:
---

"As Alex Kozinski, a federal appeals judge and an immigrant from Eastern Europe, warned in 2003, "the simple truth -- born of experience -- is that tyranny thrives best where government need not fear the wrath of an armed people."

Myths About Gun Control
By John Stossel
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- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[Jimmyjimjim]

This thread certainly has gotten out of hand. I hope no one has taken anything anyone said personally. Spirit of the great debate, and all.

Really, this is at best a charged subject. Kind of like debating the existence of God, right to abortion, or the death penalty. Topics like this require a strong stance and I doubt anyone is going to concede thier opinion, especially on an internet forum.

How 'bout we all just respect everone for thier intelligent, well thought out arguments and put this subject to bed. Let's talk about fun stuff again.

Like puppies. EVERYONE likes puppies.

[Max]

Yeah, I like puppies

PS: Yup, let's talk about the existence of god. Let's prove him.
So nobody has to "believe" anymore.
We would all know it = no more religion wars!

[Gort]

Other hot topics to consider:

Socialized medicine
Abortion
Evolution versus Intelligent Design
Macs vs. PCs (actually been done here and quite a lot - sigh)
Ginger or Mary Ann (Mary Ann . . . sweet midwestern farm girl, yeah)?
Paper or plastic?
pilsner or lager (lager . . . )



_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[Max]

[Drew]

Excellent reply, Max.

I think that a subject that is hotly debated and has many points to consider is a great thing to talk about. I love puppies, but what's to say about them? They're cute and fun and that's the end of it. I totally respect everyone in this thread that's been respectful. I think this is perhaps the most tame debate about this subject that I've ever been a part of.

[Gort]

Thank you Max; the feeling is mutual!
_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[Max]

[Tzan]

Man: Prove you exist so we can believe in you.
God: No, because proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing.
Man: But what about the Babelfish? A creature like that couldn't come about by chance, that's a dead giveaway! You've already provided proof so faith can't exist!
God: Oh dear...

At which point God promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.



Tzan: Issue resolved, next!

[Reidar]

I like to think tact is one of my strong points.

http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2005/gun-crazy-p1.php

[Drew]

That looks like a hell of a lot of fun. If there's some relation to the gun law being discussed you'll have to spell it out for me.