[Lunatique]

Just wondering what you guys think of it. The evidence Cremo and Thompson provided are pretty compelling--that humans having been around much longer than evolution theory states, and that we were already modernized once and had advanced civilizations, and that this isn't our first time to modernize as a species. The conspiracy theory aspect is kind of intriguing as well. Isn't it true that scientific theories are overthrown once undisputed evidence to prove otherwise is provided? Then how can we still believe all that we've come to believe when there are undisputed evidences that everything we've know is wrong?

Stuff to read: http://www.mcremo.com/

Stuff to listen to:
http://www.ghostlytalk.com/archives/michaelcremo2.mp3 (Cremo comes into the show at 36:05. You can skip whatever that comes before.)
http://www.ghostlytalk.com/archives/michaelcremo3.mp3 (picks up where the previous one left off)

[eyewoo]

Didn't read the suggested material, but IMHO there may have been an advanced society of humans on another planet, but not on this one. If there had been one on Earth, there would be very clear evidence somewhere of the technology used... some metalic, plastic or modular stuff... some landfill... some advanced transportion construction... bridges.... something. Advanced societies have the technology to build big things that would have left some archeological footprint.
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[Affected]

I didn't really find any evidence of anything on that site, seemed more like a plug for the books. Google quickly took me into the territory of giants and bigfeet.

[Lunatique]

They DID find metallic objects. That's what's so amazing. They also have found evidence dating back to 2 billion years (that's not a typo). It completely alters what we know thus far.

Listen to this Podcast where they interviewed Cremo: http://www.ghostlytalk.com/archives/michaelcremo2.mp3 (Cremo comes into the show at 36:05. You can skip whatever that comes before.)
http://www.ghostlytalk.com/archives/michaelcremo3.mp3 (picks up where the previous one left off)

[Affected]

Where did you get this info, Lunatique? Did you read the books and check the sources?

[balistic]

haha, that is some Art Bell shit.

Consider this Luna:

It is morphologically and genetically certain that humans and great apes share a common ancestor. We are ten times more similar to chimpanzees than rats are to mice. We are also quite obviously related to all life on Earth, right on back through the fishes. We don't have any cells or body parts that don't exist elsewhere in the animal kingdom.

Yet there were no mammals 2 billion years ago for us to descend from. There weren't even any vertebrates on Earth until just 530 million years ago!

We can also guess the age of our species by looking at markers in mitochondrial DNA that change predictably over time. This evidence, combined with the fossil record, suggests that "modern" humans are a little over 1 million years old, and that we diverged from the ancestors of the great apes about 6.5 millions years ago. Could we be off by a few hundred thousand years? Possibly. But not by tens of millions, and certainly not billions.

There's no conspiracy. Think of how many universities world-wide conduct research on the biological and cultural history of humans. How would such a massive supression of evidence occur without a leak? Anyone is free to examine the fossils and read the research.

It is a common tactic of crackpots to claim that their ideas are ignored by academia because they're dangerous. This is convenient for them because it removes their claims from any kind of serious scrutiny. If someone finds a problem with the crackpot's evidence, the critic is branded a puppet of the conspiracy.
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brian.prince|light.comp.paint

[Freebooter]

As much as I'd like to believe in that I'm afraid it's total bollocks. I aware that some ancient cultures were much more developed than people think ie. Greeks had invented a calculator and Inkas had a come way to carve a chrystal with great precision thought not-possible pre-industrial age.

Quote from a book review on Amazon:

"Given the fact that both of the Authors are members of the Krishna Bhaktivendanta Institute "that studies the relationship between modern science and the world view expressed in the Vedic literature," one begins to suspect the authors might have an agenda that "colors" the findings presented in their book."


Voila.

[Diruo]

I want to believe!

Everyone loves a good conspiracy theory, this does however not seem like such a good one. I'll read up on this more thoroughly though... I don't think we should totally rule things like this out but on the whole I think I agree with Balistic.

[Gort]

Stop it, you're talking crazy . . .


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"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[Nilwort]

I think what you�ve posted is credible as a �means to an end� Lunatique. The ideas may not be widely accepted or verifiable, but that doesn�t mean they have no value or truth. All ideas sound wacky until they are externally validated or proven.

If believing in astrology allows someone to make great art, then why not believe in astrology? If believing in Sasquatches or Yetis gives a person the mystery they need in life, then why not believe in them?

Through reasoning alone it doesn�t make a whole lot of sense, but from an artistic or creative standpoint, there is a lot to be said about using your imagination and trying to see things in different ways. The trick, I think, is to do it consciously through art or other constructive means.

I know it sounds crazy, but privately, I like to believe that windy days are lucky because my astrological element is �mutable air.� Here is a site that sort of ties into what I mean.

This might have nothing to do with what you were talking about, but it�s what I thought, anyway.

[Jimmyjimjim]

There are those who believe... that life here... began out there.... [CUE: Battlestar Galactica theme]

[Tzan]

"So say we all!"

[Capt. Fred]

True or not, it sure is fun to let your imagination wander over the exciting possibilities. Taking an anomalous item or find and imagining a whole different world of ancient civilisations and whatnot.

I personally have a lot of faith in the scientific community at the moment. I think it is the best thing us lot have going for us on our planet. Shady guys from "Ghost-talk" forums, endorsed by Uri Gellar, are from another era, and will hopefully leave the scientists to get on with their world-shaping, under-appreciated line of work.

[Max]

[Yarik]

The left image is of earth. The right image is taken from Mars...




Here is another image taken on Mars...



Here is another one. To the right, is a picture from space of Earth, to the left a picture from Mars.



It is simply impossible that nature has created these very geometrical shapes.

[Yarik]

look at both green objects. The bigger one has a perfect right angle. The smaller green object looks like a triangle

[balistic]

[balistic]

[Lunatique]

Anyway, for me personally, I think while it's good to face the world with a healthy dose of skepticism, but it's also good to keep an open mind--just in case. Not all conspiracy theories are stupid--you take them case by case and look at the hard evidences. I try to keep in mind that many of the bizzare things that's happened in our official collective history sounds just as strange and far-fetched as any of the conspiracy theories. The thing that fascinated me about the Forbidden Archeology thing is that I didn't find any disputing evidences--at least no articles on the internet...yet.

The redating of the Sphinx, AFAIK, has been accepted by the archeological community. That is very significant--findings like that can totally alter what we think we know about our past civilizations.

[balistic]

[Lunatique]

It seems like your main problem is with the 2 billion + years thing. I don't know if you actually spent time reading/listening to the links I provided, but I'll summarize the part about the 2 billion + years.

They don't actually proclaim conclusions--they merely present the evidence, and let you make up your own mind. The 2 billion+ years evidence are these metal spheres with a single perfect groove that encircles them, all found in the layer of crust that's identified as 2 billion + years old, and the geologists have no idea how or why. They admitted that the metal spheres couldn't have been formed by natural forces and had to be made, and the spheres also couldn't have found their way into that layer of crust in any other way except to have been there during that time. The natural conclusion is that some form of intelligent species made them. And for those that believe in extraterrestrial intelligence, I'm sure they have their own theories about where the metal spheres came from.

The 2 billion + thing is really the only one that seemed really far-fetched, and all the other cases presented are dated a lot closer, but still far more ancient than what the scientific community claims currently as human history. Cases like the human footprint among dinosaur foot prints, along with a fossilized human finger--that's pretty startling, no? Another case is the stone tools found in Mexico that were dated as 250 thousand years old--that's pretty compelling, no?

I downloaded the TV program "Mysterious Origins of Man" and it talked about the various cases in detail. It also doesn't preach anything or draw any conclusions--they just show you the cases that scientists can't figure out and simply categorized them as mysteries. What we do know about the origin of man is based on some very shaky leaps of association--be it the Java Man or Lucy. If you want to be skeptical, you can easily be just as skeptical of the established scientific theories. We already know that the Java Man and Lucy aren't the missing links. So now what?

[Ranath]

if the evidence is so clear that everyone would have to agree that they can't have formed by natural forces, why most of the scientists don't take those theories seriously?

[balistic]

No kidding. Every scientist dreams of discovering something that turns the world on its head. Only a few old, tenured professors are ever concerned with maintaining the status quo in the face of mouting evidence, and they either die off or come around eventually.

One must be careful when presented with data that has obviously been shaped to convince laymen. "Even a child could understand it" is a common refrain among kooks, because fooling the masses is far, far easier than fooling academia.

Look at how much leverage intelligent design and young-Earth creationism have in America. Neither movement seeks to convince scientists (because they know they can't), but instead they target housewives, and young children at their most impressionable age.

Clever marketing doesn't work on analytical professionals, but it sure as hell works on laymen.

How often have we seen photos of "ghosts" that were obviously just defocused dust particles illuminated by a flash? To a layman it's a ghost. To a photographer or digital artist, it's obviously just normal bokeh. Yet there are entire websites devoted to cataloging these "strange orbs".
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brian.prince|light.comp.paint

[Impaler]

I would just like to add that the word "bokeh" and its use gives me no small amount of pleasure.
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QED, sort of.

[Lunatique]

[Affected]

I did some more googling:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mom/spheres.html

A few quick quotes:

"Forbidden Archeology cites as a credible source of reliabe information the Weekly World News, a tabloid known for its largely or completely fictional news stories. For those people who are unfamiliar with the Weekly World News a sampling of the headlines from the March 5, 1996 issue are:

Doctors Bring Cadavers Back to Life (p. 13.)

The Earth's only Low-Gravity Zone! Massive rocks float 40 feet above ground, say scientists -- datelined Chengdu, China. (p. 15.)

Russians Finally Land on Moon...26 years after Neal Armstrong stepped onto lunar surface (pp. 24-25). (This even has a picture of and quotes from Boris Yelsin.)

Dead Wife Orders Hubby Around - from beyond the grave! Her constant reminders show up on his TV screen! (p. 21).

My favorite such story appeared on the front page of the April 7, 1992 Weekly World News with the headline:

Satan Escapes from Hell, 13 Alaskan oil rig workers killed when the Devil roars out of control

This story describes how an oil well penetrated Hell and exploded as Satan roared up through the hole at a drillsite somewhere in Alaska. The front page shows a huge cloud with the likeness of Satan pouring out of a burning oil derrick. There is even expert commentary given on this event in a sidebar by a Dr. Dimitri Azzacov complete with his alleged picture (Brunvand 1993)."


and later, regarding the spheres, it is pointed out that pyrophyllite does not from by sedimentation, meaning the material of the strata the spheres were found in must have been altered since 2.8 billion years ago: it was clay or vulcanic material that was metamorphosed into pyrophyllite over time, and this is when the spheres would have formed.

"Since the spheres are metamorphic nodules from the pyrophyllite, then they could not have been carved before the sediment was buried and metamorphosed, because the nodule would not have existed at the time that the sediments were deposited. Thus, If these grooves are artificial, than they were created after the nodule was extracted from the pyrophyllite and they are considerably younger than the age assigned to them."

[Affected]

and more specifically about that tv show:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy/nbc.html

[Lunatique]

[Affected]

what were they thinking?

I'll take a guess:
"No-one's going to check the sources anyway."

[Sumaleth]

Can I play too:
"It supported our theory and that's all we wanted to know."
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