[ReAktor]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steelwind:
Wrong. They killed for money and fear. I would kill to save others. If you would not kill to save even your own family, then you deserve what life gives you.
Steelwind

---

I wouldn`t say that I would not kill to save me or my family. This is not the point. The point is revenge. Would I kill someone who already has killed one of my family (or in this case someone complete stranger)? Would this be the case, war would never end...

Just think about this.

And, no, I do not sympathise with those guys... I just want you to think before you decide the fate of others. You have that stuff in your head for a reason!
For (insert the name of your favorite super being here)'s sake, use it...

[edraket]

America is a very violent society. Not only is the crime rate sky high compared to most western countries, violence is also embedded in the culture. A lot of people would be willing to shoot someone if they broke into their home for trying to steal their tv. Guns are seen as a necessity to keep the country safe. (?) An enormous amount of people think it is the right thing to do to kill criminals because they killed someone. And hey..how about the willingness to send thousands of their own people to their death in some war that is based on iffy political or economical reasons?

In the years I have had many discussions about this topic with different americans and they always end with nothing. It is one of those things where we just don't get each other. It makes for great discussion material though : )

[J Bradford]

Go read what was found in their car, that is sufficient evident to suggest they did these acts.

[Gort]

quote:

---

There must be a reason for this.
Especially if it was an terror attack

---

What are you talking about? That makes no sense at all. What are you talking about - "between"? The constructs for your argument are a bit vexing - please explain. I am not saying I disagree, but give a reason for why "no one deserves to die".

[-HoodZ-]

quote

Quote:

A lot of people would be willing to shoot someone if they broke into their home for trying to steal their tv.

so whats your point? ever live in LA? no course not when they rob you its not just one person its about two or three and usually they are armed....people steal for even less sad to say, just last week a chinese delivery guy was killed for the food and 12 bucks while making a delivery, i wouldnt be surprised if the next delivery guy is packing some heat....so yeah a gun is a necessity on a particular area you live in...you have to place yourself in their shoes its easy to say why when your way way way over there....

[Gort]

quote

Quote:

America is a very violent society

No...the human race is a very violent race; to narrow down western society as the harbringer of violence is not a sound argument. Take a good hard look at the world before making such a claim. It might be easy to say that about America because of media exposure, but think of all the atrocities in this world that go without exposure. Violence is not a demographic specific problem - it's a human problem.

It is argued that in America the media has a bias towards issues that counter its agendas. The Atlanta Journal Constitution, for example, is a big advocate of gun control, so expect front page news when there's a violent crime involving guns; however, when a law abiding citizen defends his/her home by shooting and killing an intruder, where does it end up? It ends up in section Z, page 17.

It is easy to make judgments at face value - or TV screen value.

[Max]

quote

Quote:

It can keep them from doing it again. IMHO, that's the point of the death penalty. Not punishment, not deterring others, just taking a threat to society out of said society.

Alright, if I could save the lifes of 2 people by killing one it's okay if it's the only way.
But these guys are arrested for their whole lifes.
They can't do anything now....why murder them?

quote

Quote:

What if it were one of the closest people you knew and deeply loved that were just struck down by the hand of another in a cold, calculated and indiscriminate way? How would really feel?

I understand your point of view. You are right. Maybe I would just say: kill them !!!
But It's not okay anyway!!
And I think it wouldn't have any sense.
The deth of one man can't give you your mum, dad, sister, whatever back.
You won't feel better as a murder.
And you are a murder if you really want them dead also if you don't directly kill them...whatever....

It's a complicate topic.

[edraket]

Hoodz:
The fact that you guys have higher crime rates doesn't mean that we live in some sort of fairyland. And for the record I live in a neighborhood that is seen as the worst neighbourhood in holland. Oh and my wife is from a very unpleasant neighbourhood in Long Beach CA.
I would go as far as to say that what you just said completely proved my point. I understand where you are coming from. My point was just that it is seen as a normal and necessary thing to counter violence with violence. I am not trying to criticise you, just sharing my conclusions about this difference in thinking.
Most people around here (including myself) have a much more peacefull..or should I say cowardlike stance towards crime and violence. If someone tries to mug them they will just hand over the goods and claim them back from the insurance. Why risk your life for 20 bucks? It saves lives. And sometimes it costs lives. Like last week when two kids beat this guy to death in front of a crowd of bystanders who didn't lift a finger.
What is even more extreme is that the government recently launched this ad-campaign in which it advises the people to not step in in situations like that but to call the police. (which I think is utterly and completely ridiculous)

Tom Carter..
I was more or less comparing The US with Holland. Not the western world with the rest.

[Steelwind]

quote

Quote:

I wouldn`t say that I would not kill to save me or my family. This is not the point.

Perhaps not, but what I got from what you said:

quote

Quote:

If your ethics do not tell you that every single intelligent life is worth more than everything else on earth then you are not better than that sniper...

Well...maybe I misunderstood, but it sounds to me like you were saying taking a life is wrong, period. Maybe you just spoke without thinking for a second. Either way, I hear you.

quote

Quote:

The point is revenge. Would I kill someone who already has killed one of my family (or in this case someone complete stranger)? Would this be the case, war would never end...

I agree, at some point there has to be forgiveness. But I wonder if I could forgive, in a situation like this...I'm not that enlightened of a person, I guess. Something like this situation is a large part of the problem between Israel and Palestine, from what I know (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), only it started about land.

quote

Quote:

And, no, I do not sympathise with those guys...

I didn't think you did, although if you did, that's your right. I'm sure there are at least a few people out in the sandy areas that are very happy about this, and that angers me, but I certainly wouldn't condemn them for it. It's all about differing opinions.

quote

Quote:

I just want you to think before you decide the fate of others.

Preach on, brother. I'm with you.

quote

Quote:

America is a very violent society.

Not quite; we are a society fery fixated on violence, unfortunately, but as a country we are not violent. Well, perhaps I should say we are not a violent people. Of course, being fixated on violence as we are, that's what's in our media, and our biggest export is our media. It distorts what we're really like, I think. At least I hope so.

quote

Quote:

But these guys are arrested for their whole lifes. They can't do anything now....why murder them?

Honestly, because I don't want to pay for them to live out the rest of their lives in relative comfort. At this point, they aren't just non-productive members of society, they're taking away from society. Pointlessly.

Besides that, I personally believe it's an offense to a man's dignity to lock him in a cage. Not to mention the dignity of those locking him away.

quote

Quote:

The deth of one man can't give you your mum, dad, sister, whatever back.

True. But it will make sure that no other mums, dads, sisters or whatever are taken away by that person. And that's good enough for me.

quote

Quote:

And you are a murder if you really want them dead also if you don't directly kill them...

I disagree. If you don't (or won't) actually do it, you didn't do it.

Many people have thought about killing someone but haven't done it, either because they couldn't or because they didn't want to risk the consequences. Either way, what you are saying is that anyone who has a thought of committing a crime is a criminal. Have you ever heard the term 'thoughtcrime'? If it ever gets to that point, I'm moving. Policing a person's thoughts is the ultimate in degredation of the human being as a thinking animal.

Steelwind

[Frost]

http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com . See this movie.

[Giant Hamster]

I say They give me a gun and let me have a free license to kill all those who I feel don't deserve to be here. Now, I know, that may sound a bit harsh to some of you...but I've got pretty good judgement. Now, all I need are a couple of super powers such as being able to see everything, teleportation, and unlimited ammunition. Provide those and life will be perfect for everyone, trust me.

The Hamster Alliance: We're good guys.

[Bare Bonez]

This whole sniper thing was kind of interesting to me from an objective philosophical standpoint.

First off these are just some brainstormed ideas and do not reflect what I believe. These are just points of interest and are purely philosphical and can be taken in any perspective. I say this as not to offend anyone or to receive any hostility, but as a means of gaining new perspectives. If you are an individual that is extremely sensititive, please do not read this post.

Point 1: Artist Morality and the Sniper

Basically what I found interesting was relating the sniper issue with the Artist's Moral Reponsibility Thread. Some argued that Artist's have no responsibility to what they create or what they do as an artform. That is just their opinion and it is valid.

However, in the case of the sniper. His art was the art of death and killing. Some might say he was "good at being a sniper". That is also valid statement.

However, the difficulty comes when relating an artist and moral responsibility. The question that arises "is the sniper morally responsible for his actions considering that it is his art and his belief?" I believe without a doubt he is, even if this is his art. However, I am interested in hearing answers from those who believe that artists are not morally responsible for their actions or use of their art.

Point 2: Universal Moral Code
The next thing I found interesting was the amount of negativity brought about the sniper. It is obiviously why people dislike him and from my opinion it is justified. The interesting part is that this may be something "morally universal". Something that all humanity might agree on: "death is bad, life is good".

Yet this brings about a contradiction when the death penalty comes into play. The new rule seems to be "death is sometimes bad, life is sometimes good." Once this is said, then the universal morality is gone, because there are individuals against this code.

Given that this is also true, then possible it could be ruled out that the sniper is not morally responsible because of the inconsistancy.

Yet for me this is somewhat troubling. It is sad to see that some people today do not understand the importance or care about some kind of moral responsibility. The worse part of this is the justification that certain groups of people should not be morally responsible while others should - i.e. terrorist.

I realize the difficulty in developing a universal moral code for society because there will always be someone to disagree. Yet I have this feeling that it exists and everyone knows what's right and wrong on some level.

If anyone believes that certain people are not "morally responsible" for their actions, especially in the case of the sniper, I would like hear the reasoning to gain some insight.

Now not discussing this philosphically. It is sad whenever person's life is unjustly taken from them. I honestly feel that society as a whole is somewhat responsible for what is going on these days, however, I guess the pendulum will always return to a more peaceful time. I can only hope that this tragic event will promote some kind of peace (and love) to your community. Damn I sound like a hippie.

[crazybread]

I too don't believe in the death penelty ladies and gentelmen BUT I DO HOPE THAT THEESE TWO TOSS SALAD FOR A LLLLOOONG MOTHERFUCKING TIME!

[mannyp]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bare Bonez:
This whole sniper thing was kind of interesting to me from an objective philosophical standpoint..... *snip*

---

Great post bonez!

Very interesting thoughts. I think you've hit a very different (creative) approach on the matter.

I've been pondering the 'what-if's of the whole thing: What if the Sniper hadn't let his ego get the best of him and give the police a lead to his past dealings with violence in Alabama which eventually led to identifying and arresting him (and his stepson)?

Up to that point, they were essentially helpless to stop him.

Cheers,

[synj]

nevermind hehe

[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: synj ]