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Topic : "Realistic Art and(or vs).....Manga/Anime (sorry)" |
shinji69 member
Member # Joined: 18 Aug 2000 Posts: 100
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Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2001 9:02 pm |
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Sorry to bring another flame war... But I really want to go on this one. For me, this one's more important than realistic art vs. modernism art thread.
I grew up in South Korea, lived there for 20 years and during that time I was bombarded with manga and anime imported from Japan, and also some Korean comicbooks and animations. Originally I wanted to become a comicbook artist just like those kids who liked to draw. In fact I never cared about drawing and painting realistically. Even when I was in Art Center I cared less about realistic painting and drawing skills, only concentrating on entertainment design. It was a year after I got expelled from Art Center when I became obsessed with learning to draw and paint like Sargent or Spooge. After that, my viewpoint radically changed.
As a man who aspire to be a realistic painter, wanting to paint like Glen Orbik or Harley Brown, I happen to look back the days when I drew like manga style. Now, I can't draw in manga style that much. I was BETTER in manga and anime style back when I was in highschool. Well, I read and saw so many anime and mangas that Americans would never heard of. Various genres, various themes and things that even only ultra die-hard US manga and anime fan barely heard of.
I aspired to be a comicbook artist back in Korea, and I know how the apprentice system works. In Asia, manga/anime and fine art(in this care, realistic art) are severely separated. Only few manga artists, both in Japan and Korea) ever attended art classes. In fact, college art classes are ONLY open to people who majors in art. And most art studios ONLY teach highschool kids preparing for college entrance exam. We don't have portfolio review system. And the test (drawing from a plaster bust) is gruesome.
The difference between Korean and Japanese manga are....well, it's the matter of business size and quality. Korean comicbook business is much smaller and gets a lot of discrimination, largely by its culture abhors anything related to children's interests. (one reason I hate to go back to Korea...) And Korean comicbook artists don't really put their efforts on their works because of the prejudice, low pay and their relative lack of craftmanship, a cultural sentiment. (if I have a chance I will scan some examples and post them on the internet. You guys will be very disturbed...)
In Japan, of course. everything is much better. But my concern is...
Do they ever learn how to draw and paint realistically? In fact, they don't ever have to. You don't have to paint like Sargent or draw like Ingres to draw big-eyed anime girls with impossibly big boobs. Of course you don't have to know about color theory and stuff to draw manga.
Or....do 'realistic' artists and manga artists ever communicate in Japan? I've seen only one or two realistic artists who often work on anime/manga related stuff. I've never seen any crossover or hybrid between two field of arts. I am really curious. What's going on in Japan? In fact, I've seen very, very few realistic painters in Japan.
I tried to discuss about this on newsgroups like r.a.a.m, only with flames from anime fans... In fact, I felt so isolated because I am in a field of study which is just as exclusive and unknown as necromancy.... |
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Anthony member
Member # Joined: 13 Apr 2000 Posts: 1577 Location: Winter Park, FLA
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Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2001 9:32 pm |
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I don't know what Japanese artists do really, but then I do know most western artists don't learn to draw manga, let alone traditional Asian art styles. Different reels for different peels I think, who cares what your "peers" think, or anyone else for that matter? :] Just have fun, that's what matters. |
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Lunatique member
Member # Joined: 27 Jan 2001 Posts: 3303 Location: Lincoln, California
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Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2001 10:16 pm |
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Man oh man. I have stumbled into a thread that sounds EXACTLY like the same thoughts I had in my head when I was a teenager. I mean, almost word for word!
I lived in Taiwan until I was 11, then I came to the States. Taiwan's comic scene was similar to that of Korea, and we grew up with tons of Japanese stuff too.
When I was about 13, I became obsessed with Macross, Appleseed, Bubble Gum crisis, Dirty Pair..etc. I drew all the time, and I valued that very unique style. To me, anime/manga style was very FLASHY and GLOSSY.
At the same time, I was hooked by Boris Vallejo, Michael Whelan, D&D, HeavyMetal magazine, and sci-fi/fantasy in general. I was in awe of the techniques. I was also fascinated by Bouguereau, Sargent, and other 19th century dudes.
While I considered myself an anime/manga artist at the time, I also tested my ability as an "artist" by drawing/painting photo-realistic work. I would draw my own manga for a bit, then set it aside and work on a photo-realistic painting. To me, they were seperate things. I knew that my realistic stuff gained more oooohs and ahhhhs from people, while I loved the imagination in the anime/manga style.
I often wondered about whether guys like Mikimoto, Shirow, Sonoda..etc could REALLY draw/paint realistically if a gun was pointed at their head. In the end, I realize that if you have the talent, you can do just about any style. ALL styles need the basic artistic rules. It just happens that the anime/manga guys concentrated in one style and used whatever traditional learning to make their personal style more "convincing."
Ever notice how when an anime/manga artist gets better with subsequent works, it's usually evident that their anatomy, colors, composition, rendering are the elements that has improved? Hmmm. What does that tell you? Even that specialized style, you still need the basics.
Anyway, I stopped caring. Over time, my own style turned into a middle ground between the two. When anime/manga guys look at my stuff, they say, "It looks like European/american stuff." When american guys look at my stuff, they say, "You have Japanese influences." I sort of see it as a stylized realism.
Now, I don't look at anime/manga stuff much anymore. Most of it lacks discipline in anatomy, figure drawing, color harmony, and rendering technique. BUT, every once a while, I'll see stuff that blows me away.
While western sci-fi/fantasy is getting more interesting because of anime/maga influences.
[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: Lunatique ] |
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shinji69 member
Member # Joined: 18 Aug 2000 Posts: 100
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Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2001 1:16 am |
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> Man oh man. I have stumbled into a thread >that sounds EXACTLY like the same >thoughts I had in my head when I was a >teenager. I mean, almost word for word!
Probably people who lived in Asian region and moved to the state, especially who loved manga/anime and finally determined to learn more traditional art have same idea. But that kind of case is very rare.
In fact, back in Art Center, fewer people than I ever expected ever got into anime and stuff, and vice versa. Few anime fan, at least on the newsgroup, have next to nil interest in traditional art. Worse yet, their concept of 'foundation art' is somewhat different from what WE think of foundation art education.
> I lived in Taiwan until I was >11, then I came to the States. Taiwan's >comic scene was similar to that of Korea, >and we grew up with tons of Japanese stuff >too.
I came to the state when I was 20 in 1996.
>When I was about 13, I became obsessed with >Macross, Appleseed, Bubble Gum >crisis, Dirty Pair..etc. I drew all the >time, and I valued that very unique style. >To me, anime/manga style was very FLASHY and >GLOSSY.
Pretty much same here. I was hooked up on Gundam since I was....7. And I loved Captain Harlock and Galaxy Express 999.
>At the same time, I was hooked by Boris >Vallejo, Michael Whelan, D&D, HeavyMetal
>magazine, and sci-fi/fantasy in general. I >was in awe of the techniques. I was also
>fascinated by Bouguereau, Sargent, and other >19th century dudes.
I 'encountered' Boris Vallejo in 1992. I was fascinated but I really had no clue how he did it. In fact, that sort of realistic art really doesn't exist in Korea. Same for HeavyMetal. Bouguereau and Sargent are completely unknown to Korean art scene at all , as far as I know. Most Korean artists have zero interest in 19th century art, partly because they don't want to be compared with the master painters, I think. Keeping the general public ignorant as much as possible...
> While I considered myself an anime/manga >artist at the time, I also tested my >ability as an "artist" by drawing/painting >photo-realistic work. I would draw my own
>manga for a bit, then set it aside and work >on a photo-realistic painting. To me, >they were seperate things. I knew that my >realistic stuff gained more oooohs and >ahhhhs from people, while I loved the >imagination in the anime/manga style.
Almost same here, except that I never cared about realistic art until I was...22. Korean people despise art because of the cultural environment. It's a very 'text-based' culture.
>I often wondered about whether guys like >Mikimoto, Shirow, Sonoda..etc could >REALLY draw/paint realistically if a gun was >pointed at their head.
Mostly, Not a chance. Mikimoto doesn't even have a small bit of formal art education. Once he demonstrated a portrait for a celebrity, and it was absolutely horrible. Shirow...? I think he can. At least he learned how to draw and paint people realistically, although he admitted that he was better at sculpture.
>In the end, I realize that if you have the >talent, you can do just about any style. ALL >styles need the basic artistic rules.
Yes, if you REALLY have the talent...
> It just happens that the anime/manga guys
>concentrated in one style and used whatever >traditional learning to make their >personal style more "convincing."
Only when it's needed. Sad but it's true. In case of Korea, most manga artists never even bothered to do so.
> Ever notice how when an anime/manga artist >gets better with subsequent works,it's >usually evident that their anatomy,colors, >composition, rendering are the elements that >has improved? Hmmm. What does that tell you? >Even that specialized style, you still need >the basics.
Mostly because they just draw more during their jobs? I don't know. I saw too much of 98% of crap among all mangas. Many of them can draw manga, but that's where it ends.
> Anyway, I stopped caring. Over time, my own >style turned into a middle ground between >the two. When anime/manga guys look at my >stuff, they say, "It looks >like European/american stuff." When american >guys look at my stuff, they say, >"You have Japanese influences." I sort of >see it as a stylized realism.
Pretty much same here. Now I CAN'T draw cute slightly deformed anime girls. Many of my characters somewhat end up looking like Shirow's works....
>Now, I don't look at anime/manga stuff much >anymore. Most of it lacks discipline in
>anatomy, figure drawing, color harmony, and >rendering technique. BUT, every once
>a while, I'll see stuff that blows me away.
Pretty much....same here, except that I care much. (Am I an art fanatic?) Sadly, they don't care. Artists don't care and fans don't know what the heck is going on.
Sad...realistic art itself is a very, very isolated and exclusive field. Damn those modernists and those 'intellectual' writers. Well, one positive thing is that there's less competition thanks to that. ^_^;
> While western sci-fi/fantasy is getting >more interesting because of anime/maga >influences.
Yeah... but it's gonna take some time for Americans to design really cool robots. Please not another battletech/Heavy Gear clunking junk. |
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gekitsu member
Member # Joined: 25 Jun 2001 Posts: 239 Location: germany
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Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2001 1:39 am |
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pretty much the same over here
besides my history, i totally understand your guys' thoughts.
i live in germany since my birth (now, i am 19 years old) and was into comics all time. at the beginning, disney and the other american stuff (spiderman etc...)
one day, a friend of mine introduced me to manga and i started to focus on these comics.
compared to what i read before, manga were the better medium for me: more dynamics, more expression... i just like them more.
my drawing also changed due to that: i was learning from shirow and sonoda mainly and in he later adys, i also see influences of nihei and kaori yuki.
besides being interested in manga, i always was fascinated by hopper, dali etc...
recently, i began to live my art-life divided into two parts: one part is manga, the other one is more "traditional arts"
i hope to turn them both into one, one day...
in fact, i see manga as realistic art in some way. of course, not photorealistic (realism compared to real appearance) but realistic compared to the brains image format. i was looking into my own brain to see that most of the details i remember from people are eyes, expression and special characteristic features. even the big boobs can be explained with that: you remember a girl and by the fact that she is a girl, you also spend a bit of detail on the characteristics of female anatomy so, characteristics that you find important are heavily overscored in mind (at least in mine)
i hope i may find a good average way to resemble "outer" and "inner" realism influences in one style... as far as i do not find one, i paint whatever style i want to... but i always have the other side in mind when drawing or painting something: even in a realistic image, i tend to overscore all characteristic features and vice versa.
so, you cannot really compare manga to traditional realism in my opinion because they in fact focus on opposites |
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