[Lunatique]

When I was posting in another thread, I realized I diss Jim Burns a lot. Not that I find his work completely horrible, it's just his weakness seem glaring compared to other illustrators of his fame.

Anyway, I thought it'd be kind of interesting to list the artists that we don't quite care for, regardless of their fame or significance in history.

Maybe we'll learn something out of this discussion, not only in what mistakes to avoid as artists, but as to how someone might see an artist you like/dislike in a completely different light and be able to back it up with his/her own reasons.

Of course, there are too many bad artists out there, but this list is for the ones that has "made it," yet still lacks. Of course, they probably kick my ass, but I don't think one needs to be a master to make these observations.

I'll begin:

(I can be a bit mean with my remarks, so try not to cringe if I diss one of your favorite artists. I'll try to keep a constructive yet humorous tone. Of course, I would never diss the sijun family or artists I personally know.)

Jim Burns-- For a very long time, Burns had the worst composition in the business of sci-fi illustration. He copied photo-references for his figures/faces excessively, and ended up with dead looking renderings. His colors are flat, and don't interact with each other. The super-clean airbrush look really was a turn off also. His foregrounds alwasy look like paper cutouts because the edges are so damn sharp.

I do like some of his high-tech designs though. He's gotten a bit better over the last decade, but he still has some of the same problems he's had since the begining.

Larry Elmore-- Out of all the TSR guys, I like his work the least. His rendering is usually sloppy and clumsy in places they shouldn't be. He doesn't use reference when he should, and ends up with technically incorrect elements in his paintings such as folds on clothing(Larry, there are stress-points in folds), anatomy..etc. And regarding his colors--garish is the word I would use. The number of duds he's painted is actually impressive. I'd say his work reminds me of a comic book artist who is learning to paint, and hasn't gotten very far.

Surprisingly, his b/w work are much better than his paintings.

RK Post-- He seems to think that ripping off Brom will be the answer to artistic ascension. I'd like to see Brom go up to him at a convention and push him around a bit.(Just been informed the two are buddies. So, I'll just take my foot outta my mouth for this one)

What's his name that ripps off Frazetta and won't admit it-- Need I say it?

Rowena-- She's like a bad copy of Boris, with a feminine twist and bad color sense(once again, that word: garish). I have never seen another illustrator paint uglier looking backgrounds. She can't paint rocks/stone to save her life, as she seems to not understand the word "texture" in the artistic context.

But, her new book just came out, and it looks like she's gotten better.

Rosetti(the Pre-Raphaelite dude)-- I don't know what the big deal is about him. There are so many other artists that are better from that school of painting style.

End diss.

Please, no flames. Save that energy for writing your own diss.

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: Lunatique ]

[ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: Lunatique ]

[strata]

I just realized how amazingly little I know about any of this... I couldn't list a painter or period that I like/dislike even if I wanted to... lazyness is ones own worst enemy.

[Motorfish]

What exactly is the purpose of this?

[Kaete]

To be honest, I don't like Brom or Franzetta. I'm not saying they aren't good artist, because they certainly are. I just find their color choices, background, and anatomy personally repulsive.

[balistic]

I don't like Mike Whelan's people. His aliens and robots are fine, but his people are mannequins.

I don't like Henry or Tolouse. They took some good ideas from oriental artists and added unguided slopiness.

I don't like painters who produce near-exact copies of photographs. I think that an artist needs to be more than a copy machine.

Bill Flemming. For proclaiming himself the world's leading 3D artist while continuing to produce ugly, unilluminated scenes.

[Kaete]

Now that you mention it, Whelan doesn't always have the best people. But his dragons rock!

[Anthony]

Hahaha, Bill Phleming, nobody liked that guy :]

[Sedone]

Okay, I've got one. Darrel K. Sweet. Now, I'm not a huge fan of his to begin with, but I remember back in middle school I used to love the artwork he did for the Shannara books. But it seems like his stuff has gotten worse throughout the years. I hate his Wheel of Time covers. Well, The Great Hunt was okay, but the rest are just bad. To me it just seems like a case of cashing in and being lazy.

[xXxPZxXx]

Michelangelo - I really don't like this guy. More so do with his outlook on life than anything else. (even though I don't exactly know him) plus his paintings lack something that other guys at the same time had. (Leonardo, Raphael) But he was also an asshole especially towards Leonardo who in my opinion was a much superior person in all regards. Where Leonardo tried to find peace in himself Michelangelo took his short temper and arrogance out on others. Yes Michelangelo's sculptures are amazing I very much don't like the guy.

-PZ-

[edible snowman]

any local commercial artist in my area. i'm not trying to be some arrogant kid, but the people who get paid the do art as a living around here are so ridiculously bad it disgusts me when i think about it. i'm not that good, i have no art education, and no work ethic, and i could still do a way better job than half the retards that are getting paid right now.

[Steven Stahlberg]

Boris Vallejo, the master of Fantasy Kitsch. His sketches are ok, in fact so very much better than his paintings that it's really surprising.

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: Steven Stahlberg ]

[BooMSticK]

hmm.. dont understand why we need to discuss this??? Bad taste, maybe? Envyness?
,Boom

[Briareos]

anyone that does paintovers, yes that means you!

[Tinusch]

Boris Vallejo

[Lunatique]

Motorfish, BooMSticK-- I already mentioned in the first post why I think this might be helpful to us. I'll reiterate:

By pointing out what we don't like about established, famous artists, it could help us develop a better critical eye when judging/analyze/studying other people's work. This is especially helpful for younger artists who are easily in awe of the famous illustrators, but havn't developed a critical eyes to break things down and see what works and what doesn't.

For example, you could really like some person's work, and then you read a post here pointing out things that's lacking in that person's work. Now, you think to yourself, "Hmmm, I never noticed that. This dude posted saying that my favorite artist has weak composition and the way he poses people in his paintings is really contrived. Let me dig up his books and see what this dude means." Then, you look harder than you ever have at this person't work, and you go, "Ahhhhh. I see now. I never noticed that!"

And from that, you learn to sharpen your critical eye and further develop your ability to judge what works and what doesn't work in paintings.

Does that make sense?

[Svanur]

Personally I really like Elmore, especially his Dragonlance paintings, the one with Lord Soth and his champions and another one who depicts Sturm dead at High Clerist Tower.

I admit though he has a comic flavour to him when you mention it and his BW is really good.

If I should pick someone who I would diss it would be Boris Vallejo. He has excellent technique and skills but his paintings are rather dull from my point of view. They lack the sense of action and life Frazetta has for example.

Baxa: some TSR painter who did a lot of work for their campaign set, "Dark Sun". He has this erratic style which is to strange for illustration.

[Freddio]

haha everyone loves to Dis Boris.

I like most of his stuff "not all" but most of his stuff.

I like his work because it looks good. I hate breaking all his stuff down into technical aspects and ridiculing the hell out of it.

[BooMSticK]

Lunatique - well, yes. you might just be right there... I just dont think that a online forum is the right place to do the dissing. Maybe its just me..

And to call RK Post a Brom copycat is bad taste I think. I know for a fact they are good buddies, and I can for one tell their works apart easily...

,Boom

[Sedone]

Ah well, there wasn't any deep, meaningful lessons behind my post. I was bored . I'm just a geeky fanboy who likes to discuss the pros and cons of different artists instead of talking about sports.

And I might be tempted to join in and dis Boris, but the piece I'm working on now sure looks a lot like his style. I have no room to talk

[Lunatique]

BooMStick-- Oops. I didn't know that they are buddies. Hmmm, in that case, I guess it's "friendly influence"?

I'll edit my original post to refelct my new revelation.

You are probably right about the forum not being the best place for this, but I dare say that certain discussions about art in the past here probably has done much worse than this thread as far as inappropriateness. For example, a lot of us wrote off an entire art movement as not only irrelevant, but deceiving and false.

[Samurai]

Tim and Greg Hilderbrant kind of bug me. Their settings and characters tend to come off looking grainy and oily at the same time, like someone dumped a vat of corn oil on the ground. Poses come off looking unnatural, and I just generally don't enjoy looking at their work. I love the painting of Eowyn facing down the Witch King, but I don't really dig the rest.

I'll have to throw in my 2 cents about Boris as well. Ultra generic Sci-Fi/Fantasy super-shiny retro softporn just doesn't really hit me in my fun-time good spots... y'know? Oh well.

Maybe someone should start up a "Praising artists" thread about what we like in the techniques of the pros (or has this been done and I missed it?).

[BooMSticK]

well, I guess my disliking of threads like this boils down to the fact that all of these guys mentioned: Boris, Bros. Hildebrandt, Darryl Sweet etc. all have craftmanship that very, very few people has on these boards.
I would give my left arm to be able to paint like Boris. I would probably not paint the same stuff as he does but that is another story.
To say the truth I have done alot of dissing in my time. Now I just find it more inspiring looking at those artists and try to find things about them that I like; style, techinque colorchoises etc... So much more rewarding...

Dissing is easy, finding the good's in the bads is the hard part...
,Boom

[Ztiev]

Hey! I really dig most of the people getting dissed here.

Brom is one of my favorites, in fact. He's got a dark, rough, edgy feel to everything he does, and his anatomy, while very gaunt and sinuey, has a lot of character, and adds to the effect.

Boris, I will admit, has a staleness that makes you feel more like you're in his studio while Julie Bell holds a pose than in a world of fantasy. But the skill in rendering is phenomenal. He has an amazing sense of color, value, volume, etc.

Baxa, I can't really say is on my preffered list. However, he has an original style, and he's making alot of progress.

Honestly, I feel like there isn't much I come across that there is not something worthwhile about.

But since this is a dis thread... *Steps up onto his soapbox*

Picasso. Considered by many to be the greatest painter of all time. Because he "could paint realistic, but didn't" Because even though anyone could do the crap he put out "He's the one with the will and the vision to do have done it." Whatever. His status as the archetype creative genius leaves me baffled. He wasn't very good, IMHO. I think that he did have some cool things to offer artists. But he was SO far from the greatest painter. He's the single most overhyped, overappreciated artist in history. And when you say that, a gazillion explanations hail down on you as to why he's the greatest. If I have to listen to a three hour lecture convincing me that painting is good, it's not good. I can't say I've never been interested in how he interpreted things. And there are some of his works I really like. But most of his stuff just... really sucked. Try as I might, I've never been able to understand the deification of Picasso. He was a cocky goober.

*Steps back down from his soapbox.*

So I guess it's mainly jealousy of who his publicity agent was.

I pretty much like everybody else.

[Ahcri]

I extremely dislike the paintings of Lucian Freud. He usually paints people in extremely close details, but the porportions are sometimes wrong, that's probably because he would rather work on the painting in different parts rather than as a whole. And the details are what made the people in his painting ugly. He is the one artist I would never admire and learn anything from.

[Lukiaz]

kaete - "just find their color choices, background, and anatomy personally repulsive"

Colours choices and bg are personal preferences....but Frazetta's anatomy????.
Its like saying a rock isn't a rock. His anatomy IS A1.
But again, opinions are merely opinions.


Shalom

[Kaete]

Well, I guess I should clarify that. The man totally knows his anatomy, and his a million light years beyond my meager skill. I just don't like how he often decides to use his knowledge.

Maybe it's just the genre he works in or something... But the over-emphasis on muscles makes me feel like I'm looking at gay porn. Nothing wrong with that --- it's just not to my tastes.

[balistic]

Frazetta has said that instead of depicting anatomy realistically, he tries to use it for dramatic effect . . . veins bulge more than they ought to, breasts stand in perky defiance of evil, and poses are set at their extremes . . . its a charcaterization of anatomy instead of a literal depiction of it.

[FrustratedARTist]

I'm what you might call a "frustrated" artist due to the fact that I can't find a style that I'm very good at, but rather find that I'm mediocre in all styles, which really pisses me off .

But anyway I haveta say that...um...lost my train of thought...Ok, ok I meant to say that all artist in my opinion are great, but anyone that has the guts to stand up, throw their artwork on the wall and say "HEY look at my artwork" is, in my book, not necessarily a good artist but one that you know has confidence in themself... And that that my friend is something I don't have, but greatly admire.

As for cocky bastards, like Bill Phleming, well that's a different story.

Frustrated