[James Bradford]

For anyone who uses Linux out there - I have an old p233 I built out of spare parts. I want to put Linux on it since I can't think of much other uses for it. I have never used Linux before. What is the best version of Linux out there for someone like me? I guess what would be the most user friendly, and hardware complient. Any other info I should? Thanks!

[Coaster]

I just put the latest Red Hat distrobution on mine (7.3), I would recommend for you Mandrake- great to use if your new to linux and very hardware flexable. (I just switched to red hat)

The idea behind linux is that it's free.. but if you don't want to download it then you can buy it ($20) and it'll come with more stuff.

We just got rid of our last windows computer!!
Hooray! no more crashing.

Mandrake linux is on version 8.2, and is at mandrakelinux.com

Have fun, it gets addictive.

[pixelsoldier]

Read the manpages.. thoroughly. Actually, read everything you can.

Mandrake is pretty user-friendly, but you're still gonna be shell-shocked moving from a Windows box.

Coaster is right, it does get addictive. There is SO much to learn beyond 'pointing and clicking' that you'll always be looking to add funky utilities and such to your machine.

I used to install/uninstall Linux like crazy, but it's been years since I used it. I think I last used Slackware 2.6

[Coaster]

Slackware 8.1 came out yesterday..
Really fun to try doing EVERYthing through the console. Even using lynx.

[James Bradford]

Thanks for the responses - I will try out Mandrake.

[ceenda]

Mandrake, definately.

some resources too:
http://www.mandrakelinux.com
http://www.linuxnewbie.com
http://www.linux.com
http://www.linuxlinks.com

I still use windows 95% of the time.

[ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: ceenda ]

[James Bradford]

Thanks. I use Windows all the time to, and I don't plan to switch. Atleast not yet? Lately I am reading linux seems to be the OS of choice now for a lot of CGI companies like Industrial Light and Magic. Even Disney is hopping on the Linux bandwagon. If this keeps up, a lot of developers will make Linux versions more availible. Maybe the death of windows for all those anti-ms artists out there. Who knows.

[balistic]

You need to tarball your kernel.

Or something.

[Coaster]

RPM! pa-lease.

[vigilo]

Best distro is Debian in my opinion. I haven't used it in a year, but potato was really good for me. A lot less arcanity than other versions too.

Overall i think linux sucks ass and shouldn't be something you waste your time on. Have fun installing Bob's patch to get Johns patch to work with Sam's patch so you can have smooth fonts...

[Coaster]

A lot can happen in a year...
that doesn't happen much anymore.

Thanks to the miracles of RPMs!

Yoda was made in linux, so I really wouldn't doubt its graphical capabilities.

[pixelsoldier]

RPMs are only RedHat specific though, right?

Not everyone loves RedHat.

When I was running Linux I did in fact do everything from the console. I couldn't for the life of me get KDE working properly with my video card (which was extremely common at the time), so I was forced to use the console exclusively. I dindn't mind, though. It made me feel like a hacker or something

I had so much trouble getting ifconfig to show something other than the local loopback. Hahah, I'm an idiot. :P

[ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: pixelsoldier ]

[Coaster]

RPMs are for em all now..

That happened to me, so I put on mandrake.. the video card wasn't working too well so I put on Red Hat, still wasn't working well so I 'fixed' it and was only able to use the console (which trully isn't that bad) then I got it right.

Finally I can play Tux Racer and my mind is at ease. Er, more like I play Quake III demo...

[vigilo]

The problem with linux is not its capabilities and raw benchmarks but its usability... which is almost non-existant if used as a desktop. And as a server I'd rather go BSD, which is a much preferred choice of many. Buts that last one is an opinion.

Go use Gimp and tell me its anywhere on the same level as Photoshop, in any area. Its a hopeless, convoluted pile, so is most linux software... made at a spare time by people on different sides of the world. None of it works together... because everyone uses a different 'standard' out of hundreds of them.

Every time i give in to some latest distro and install it, i tell myself two weeks later... "I could do all of this and more in windows without spending countless hours on configuration, troubleshooting and patching". RPM's don't fix disorganization, and telling linux freaks to follow standards is like trying to make a hippy get a job.

Yoda was made in linux on 3rd party software ported specifically to linux. Their whole agenda was probably to move to a better faster nix* without paying millions for licenses for their rendering farms.

P.S.

RPM's are industry standard for the most part... i think most distros support them or have them as their main packaging standard.

[Coaster]

Linux is free.
Its one of the most stable.
It appeals to some because of the challenge of what you said..

Your right, it is quite disorganized and chock-full of small applications but the thing about it is if you don't like them you don't need to use them because its so customizable and doesn't have any of that registry crap.

[Agrajag]

I'm a complete Linux-Newbie. I've tried Mandrake and Dragonlinux so far, with limited success. Usability is only granted to those who spend time on reading a lot, it seems. So I'm going to get me a SUSE complete with manuals and stuff in the very near future, hoping to finally get it to work properly. The reason is not that I dislike windows, but I highly dislike the policy of it's creators...
A question, just out of interest: What do you guys use for creating art on linux? I tried the Gimp once, and generally it was cool (probably could get used to it over time). But what about the tablet? Gimp doesn't support it AFAIK, at least not in the Win32-version.

[vigilo]

quote

Quote:

When commercial software makers begin to see a larger market share of Linux home users, I think you'll see much more polished software.

I think that�s been tried. Due to free nature of linux that kind of software is almost never bought and is usually substituted by some free version.

quote

Quote:

Walmart now sells computers with Mandrake or Lindows linux pre-installed. There is also the Linux Standard Base(albiet a little late) with the goal of standardizing applications libraries and such.

Dell has been packaging desktop linux too... for years. It never went anywhere, linux vendors still went bankrupt. People just don�t wanna deal with console and configs, and no matter how much you argue that they don�t have to anymore� with linux they almost always will.

quote:

---

As a desktop OS, I think Linux has a bright future.
I have used Gimp and I will tell you it's on the same plane as Photoshop.
It's essentially the same program.

---

I heard this every year for past 5 years since the first day I tried linux.
Maybe in 15 years it will reach the level of 2000/XP... or sooner if picked up by some company (like apple picked up BSD and made OS X). Even with the standardization projects, if not pushed by market - a software publisher (in this case thousands of randomly scattered programmers who do it for free) will not organize themselves enough to do what they don�t wanna do. They will simply stick to doing whats fun for them, not the consumer.

Sure KDE is great and Gnome has an awesome architecture, but it still is half-assed no matter how you look at it. Even windows 3.1 had more polish. Can you now paste things from one window to another in linux? Can you embed a visual components from other vendors with same ease you can with ActiveX controls? I honestly don�t see this happening anytime soon in linux world. And when it does, it will already be miles behind compared to commercial OS�s. Just look at their frantic efforts of trying to clone .NET with MONO, you think they would ever come up with anything like that on their own?

As to Photoshop, I think 4.0 is still better than any GIMP version I have ever used. It hasn�t changed much interface wise, which is just a testament of how well it was thought out in the first place, unlike gimp� where I need to perform 10X more clicking than I want to.

Organizations are only as good as they are organized. Linux is a playground for college kids� great platform to learn things, start projects and abandon them months later. QA is almost non-existant� no person involved in a free project would put the same effort as they would if their paycheck depended on what they are doing.

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: vigilo ]

[elam]

quote

Quote:

I think that�s been tried. Due to free nature of linux that kind of software is almost never bought and is usually substituted by some free version.

Really? Who?

quote

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Dell has been packaging desktop linux too... for years. It never went anywhere, linux vendors still went bankrupt. People just don�t wanna deal with console and configs, and no matter how much you argue that they don�t have to anymore� with linux they almost always will.

Dell is a computer manufacturer. Walmart is a massive retailer. I do hope you understand the difference.

I don't really think I need to point to the number of software programs that have evolved with Linux that are at least as reliable and polished as any Window programs.

You're broad know-it all statements indicate ignorance. Don't blame the OS for your lack of skills and knowlege.

quote

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Sure KDE is great and Gnome has an awesome architecture, but it still is half-assed no matter how you look at it

Can you say contradiction?

These lazy "college kids"(what?) have built Linux up from nothing to a multi-billion dollar industry.
I don't think it will become the mother of all os's, but as I said, the future is bright. I think it will be a viable alternative, certainly to Windows.

Joe Blow doesn't care what OS he's using. He want's to surf and play music and games. Windows doesn't have a monopoly on that.

But Linux also has a cool factor for me. So many interesting software and ideas and community. Linux is about freedom and that will always lead to more interesting paths, even if you can't "embed a visual components from other vendors with same ease you can with ActiveX controls". Nerd.

[Coaster]

Vigilo - Er, when was the last time you used linux?

And I think you have it the other way around Windoze has been spoiling the inovation. A new company appears with good people and ideas, and Mikrosoft will steal their ideas and knock them into dept.

Linux is becoming more widespread, and as the reluctant people dazzled by the phrase "new edition" it will grow more.

[vigilo]

quote

Quote:

Really? Who?

I don�t have concrete examples� go ahead pint this against me. I don�t have time to dig up names. I worked for an ISP years ago who multiple times chose free ftp server and firewalls over expensive commercial ones.

quote

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Dell is a computer manufacturer. Walmart is a massive retailer. I do hope you understand the difference.

What? The difference is what? Dell has retail outlets all over the place. And they sell a hell of a lot more desktop computers than walmart. Exposure is the same�

quote

Quote:

I don't really think I need to point to the number of software programs that have evolved with Linux that are at least as reliable and polished as any Window programs.

Staroffice? Gimp? Gnumeric? If these are on your list� I am sorry they are not in the same league as office 2000/xp. Aside from a few networking apps maybe I�ve seen nothing in free software world that is as polished as commercial software.

quote

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You're broad know-it all statements indicate ignorance. Don't blame the OS for your lack of skills and knowlege.

My lack of skills in knowledge of needless arcanity is direct evidence of your stupidity.

quote:

---

Can you say contradiction?

These lazy "college kids"(what?) have built Linux up from nothing to a multi-billion dollar industry.

---

Multi billion? Multi billions of bytes of bandwith wasted on downloading latest distros, patches and kde skins maybe. Linux doesn�t make any money� it sells like hot-cakes in server market due to it being cheap but it makes no more than 40mil a year unlike �other� os�s who sell 2 billion a year and lead in both markets.

quote

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Joe Blow doesn't care what OS he's using. He want's to surf and play music and games. Windows doesn't have a monopoly on that.

Have your mom figure out latest Suse� then I�ll agree. She wont get past choosing �2 trillion� identical mp3 players, text editos and email clients that come with its installation. Freedom of choice when abused becomes one endless puzzle.

quote

Quote:

But Linux also has a cool factor for me. So many interesting software and ideas and community. Linux is about freedom and that will always lead to more interesting paths, even if you can't "embed a visual components from other vendors with same ease you can with ActiveX controls". Nerd.

*gigglesnort* Sorry.

I�ve wasted enough time on the �interesting� hay stack that is linux, all its needless and countless mazes that are in the end just a result of lack of collaboration between its �communities� of makers. Have fun looking for your needles.

Coaster: a year ago.

Yeah I agree that windows knocks out a lot of competition because they have the dough, but when it comes to innovation they push the market unlike anyone. Especially now.
Linux has been doing nothing but cloning windows for past 3 years.

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: vigilo ]

[vigilo]

I've read something about some proprietary drivers for wacoms a year ago... never got around to trying it though.

[elam]

quote:

---

The problem with linux is not its capabilities and raw benchmarks but its usability... which is almost non-existant if used as a desktop. And as a server I'd rather go BSD, which is a much preferred choice of many. Buts that last one is an opinion.
Go use Gimp and tell me its anywhere on the same level as Photoshop, in any area. Its a hopeless, convoluted pile, so is most linux software... made at a spare time by people on different sides of the world. None of it works together... because everyone uses a different 'standard' out of hundreds of them.

---

When commercial software makers begin to see a larger market share of Linux home users, I think you'll see much more polished software.

Walmart now sells computers with Mandrake or Lindows linux pre-installed. There is also the Linux Standard Base(albiet a little late) with the goal of standardizing applications libraries and such.

As a desktop OS, I think Linux has a bright future.
I have used Gimp and I will tell you it's on the same plane as Photoshop.
It's essentially the same program.

Has photoshop really changed since version 4.0?
I mean it's got fancier selection tools and new brushes, but so what?
Anything you can do in Photoshop, I'll bet I can do in GIMP, with a minimum of hassle.

quote

Quote:

I've read something about some proprietary drivers for wacoms a year ago... never got around to trying it though

Wacom doesn't officially support Linux, but they do have drivers that work just fine.
I can get a full range of pressure sensitivity and tilt on all applications that support them.

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: elam ]

[ceenda]

I laughed at alot of what vigilo said because in way I agree.

In particular this:

quote

Quote:

Have your mom figure out latest Suse� then I�ll agree. She wont get past choosing �2 trillion� identical mp3 players, text editos and email clients that come with its installation. Freedom of choice when abused becomes one endless puzzle.

hit the nail right on the head.

Linux distributions are now a huge confused mess of identical(ly useless) components. Obviously, not a problem if your Linux savvy, but if you're not, you're in the majority.

Also, congratulations to the person who got their Wacom working with pressure sensitivity. You're in a minority of about... ooh... 5.

[elam]

I've never seen a Dell store in my life. They sell to the consumer through the web or through places like Sears, at least in Michigan.

Walmarts are everywhere. Exposure is much greater.

Polished software?
Apache, Samba, Perl, Python, Google, Mozilla, Gimp, Open Office, Maya, XSI, Shake, Mathmatica, The Internet......
List is almost endless.
Disney, Dreamworks, Pixar, practically all of Hollywood animation uses Linux on their *desktops*. If you can get an artist to use it, anyone can.


My mom doesn't need to figure out a thing. She calls me, I log in to her computer, and do what needs to be done. I can even see her desktop on my computer.
Do that with Windows.

The future for the average guy isn't in the desktop anyway. It's in emeded devices like Palms and tv top boxes like Tivo and Web TV.
Unix os's, with their modular architecture are in a far better position to penetrate those markets than Microsoft's bloated, monolithic Windows. Not to mention cheaper.

Do you really believe Microsoft to be innovative? Coercive, bullying, thuggish maybe. What software has Microsoft put out in the last.... oh hell, ever, that has been innovative. They've stolen or bought every idea they've ever had.

If you actually knew what you were talking about and weren't so close minded, you would see the huge amount of software innovation that is going on with Linux. Visit Slashdot or Freshmeat every once in a while.
Freedom is what makes that possible. Not $.

[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: elam ]

[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: elam ]

[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: elam ]

[ceenda]

quote

Quote:

Do you really believe Microsoft to be innovative?

Not innovative, no, but their bloated strategy is paying off in areas you wouldn't expect. If all OS's were small, neat, optimised would there be any need to force hardware manafacturers to make more powerful computing components, larger hardrives, larger RAM, improved disk caching technology, improving processor speeds, pushing hardware to the limits and expanding technological frontiers. It's corrupt, certainly, but it's putting the strain on the companies to improve their technology.

It's a sorry analogy to the fact that war improves technology faster than in peacetime.

[Coaster]

Elam - Bingo.

Same with how computer virusus.. well if one hits somebody chances are they will learn their lesson and learn how to protect themselfs. Without people writing that stuff computers would be so unprotected all you'd need is a 10 year old script kiddy to...

my dad is paying me $25/mo to keep the linux computers working.. so I guess there always needs to be something like that.

[pixelsoldier]

quote

Quote:

What? The difference is what? Dell has retail outlets all over the place. And they sell a hell of a lot more desktop computers than walmart. Exposure is the same�

Dell does NOT have retail outlets. Do you just make shit up to suit your arguement? Hilarious.

[vigilo]

Pixelsoldier: you right they don�t. This invalidates that part of my argument. Gateway and Dell at 11pm sounded the same.

quote:

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I've never seen a Dell store in my life. They sell to the consumer through the web or through places like Sears, at least in Michigan.
Walmarts are everywhere. Exposure is much greater.

---

As above I agree. I don�t think they even sell them in stores. Excuse my late night brainfarts.

Thought I�d still like to see how many Lindows buying moms will return their purchases.

quote:

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Polished software?
Apache, Samba, Perl, Python, Google, Mozilla, Gimp, Open Office, Maya, XSI, Shake, Mathmatica, The Internet......
List is almost endless.

---

We were talking about desktops weren�t we? Aside from a few half this is server software others are programming languages and 3d modeling tools which random joe will never use. Open Office is as polished as Works 97 was, hardly anything to put in the same league as Office XP.
Yeah the list is not almost but is endless. Quality in quantity right?

quote:

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My mom doesn't need to figure out a thing. She calls me, I log in to her computer, and do what needs to be done. I can even see her desktop on my computer.
Do that with Windows.

---

I�ve been doing that since 99. It�s called Terminal Services or Remote Desktop in XP.

quote:

---

The future for the average guy isn't in the desktop anyway. It's in emeded devices like Palms and tv top boxes like Tivo and Web TV.
Unix os's, with their modular architecture are in a far better position to penetrate those markets than Microsoft's bloated, monolithic Windows. Not to mention cheaper.

---

Windows CE. Also check out what SP1 for WinXP is going to do. And let�s stay on the topic.

quote

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Do you really believe Microsoft to be innovative? Coercive, bullying, thuggish maybe. What software has Microsoft put out in the last.... oh hell, ever, that has been innovative. They've stolen or bought every idea they've ever had.

Not in a sense that they invent new things. They invent implementations and usage of existing ideas that constantly pushes others to keep up and often drives the industry. Marketing helps too. You might think this is lame and bullyish but, I�d like to see a linux user accomplish what I can on windows with as little effort.

quote:

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If you actually knew what you were talking about and weren't so close minded, you would see the huge amount of software innovation that is going on with Linux. Visit Slashdot or Freshmeat every once in a while.
Freedom is what makes that possible. Not $.

---

Visit /. every day still. Used to go to Freshmeat when ran linux, it was all fun for about a year.
As to me being close-minded its only because of my disgust from all the time I wasted on linux. I know what I am saying as I used both� long enough to fall in love with linux� then realize how much it actually sucks� going through denial etc.

This is tiresome. You configure your linux, I�ll use ms. I�m done.

[elam]

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I�ve been doing that since 99. It�s called Terminal Services or Remote Desktop in XP

---

Needs 2000 server, which will run you a cool grand.

quote

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Not in a sense that they invent new things. They invent implementations and usage of existing ideas that constantly pushes others to keep up and often drives the industry. Marketing helps too. You might think this is lame and bullyish but, I�d like to see a linux user accomplish what I can on windows with as little effort.

Well, the Justice Department disagrees with you. And I don't know what industry your talking about, but it's certainly not the software or OS industry.

[vigilo]

Required NT Server. Now you just need XP.

And justice department is getting some of their way with xp sp1.

I suppose Konqueror the filebrowser/web browser/everything in one is not an idea stolen from windows explorer?
And KDE control center is not Windows Management Snap-In?