[Gort]

More here
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- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[Nilwort]

Yeah, Muhammad was featured in some Danish cartoons... Yeah, Islam has a thing against idolatry (so does Judaism)... It certainly doesn't help that the West and the Islamic world have thousands of years of conflict and alienation between themselves.

I say that we get all of our leaders together and have a big pillow fight to settle our differences. There could be tasty beverages and music (culturally neutral music and beverages) while the room filled with feathers and the giggles of mature adults enjoying themselves. Afterwards, they'd shake hands in a totally masculine way, and there would never be conflict again!

[Capt. Fred]

lol!

Great cartoons.

[balistic]

I had a discussion with a Muslim American regarding the violence that has resulted from the publication of the Danish cartoons. His stance was that the cartoonist was responsible for the violent demonstrations and destruction of property. He likened the cause and effect relationship between Muslims and the cartoons to that of a young girl with epilepsy who suffers seizures when exposed to a certain pattern of lights.

This view intellectually enraged me, but I tried to remain calm and explained to him that a sick child has no choice when she suffers a siezure. However, an adult who burns down a building or blows himself up over nothing more than an offensive idea has a choice in the matter. They've made a decision to over react.

That said, one has to remember that in the places where the most violent demonstrations took place, many of the people involved have no experience with contrary opinions. They live in theocracies where they're told what is right and wrong, and there is precious little social pluralism from which to learn tolerance. As many sappy connotations as the word "tolerance" has, it is the essential lubricant which allows civilization to function and flourish.

There are many people around the world, and far too many in America itself, who believe that it is a divine right to complete their lives having never been exposed to offensive ideas. This was the view of the Muslim man I mentioned earlier in the post. I told him that his idea was offensive to me, but that I was willing to talk to him about it instead of setting his house on fire.

Nobody has the right to never be offended. It is impossible to create a functional world that is inoffensive to everyone.
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[Ranath]

I find it funny how our freedom of speech would be limited in name of political correctness or something, while muslims' freedom of act would remain... they can burn embassies and stuff, right.. doesn't sound right to me. It's what we see here: http://www.eclectecon.com/files/econoclectic-Cartoon03.jpg

Also, when it comes to offending eachother's religions, by burning Danish flag, they burn a symbol of Christianity (in Danish flag there's a cross, which is, like in every western country with a cross in their flag, placed there as a symbol of Christianity). It's like what we see here: http://www.eclectecon.com/files/econoclectic-cartoon10.jpg

[[Shizo]]

The people involved in demonstrations and attacks are..

1. Dumb bullies with too much free time on their hands.
2. Really don't know better, being brought up in a ultra-traditional-conservative-radical-extremist environment.

To them, freedom of thought practised in Denmark is truly unacceptable and uncomprehensible. Even to the immigrants living in Danmark for a while. They stick to their conservative traditions of arranging marriages and other silly activities by living in groups, not accepting culture and way of mind of the country that they live in.

I deduct this from my own experience talking to a couple Pakistani immigrants at work. Both guys are friendly and intelligent (although one is friendly as long as you dont question his beliefs).
One has accepted "free thinking" and acceptance, while another was F.O.B. and still "in the shell"... ready to run around with a green ribbon on his forehead, yelling "JIHAD!" and shooting his AK47 in the air. VERY SAD!

[Naeem]

Hmm... I'm muslim.
These extremists have really fucked up the world for muslims like me and the majority of Muslims living around the world, just like normal people.
I was hurt by the cartoons rather then offended. I didn't know the world saw it like that to that extent.
I'm pretty open-minded... I mean, I dont think any god promoted on earth really exists... That all religions on Earth are just man-made. Jesus, Mohammad, Abraham, Moses, Davind, and all others alike, just saw that man needed hope. So they gave to the world what it wanted.. something tangible and believable to believe in. Something that would give them hope to wake up the next day, and welcome that day, in hope that one day, things WILL get better, that there WILL be a better life then this.
But over time, the original teachings have eroded or are eroding. From day one, the first thing my parents told me is to never fight. If someone taunts me, or offends me, just walk away. Always avoid such stuff. And that this is what God wants is what they'd say...
I'm pretty disgusted by the acts of these extremists. I guess they were hurt, but they should use the pen to fight back, not the sword. That is what my parents have always taught me, and what all my muslim teenage friends have been taught. Islam is just being used as a tool by the extremists to gain power and reason for their intentions and actions. I'm sure if you could ask Mohammad's opinion, he really would be offended today. I've read the quran about 20 times over and over in my life to this day. I've nevr read anything that says to kill, or an eye for an eye.
I hav always read to wait it out and not use violence. That god will intervene.

I'm more offended by the behavior of the extremists then the cartoons themselves. It really is fucked up. Just the other day, a guy I know thinks that the word terrorist MEANS muslim. And he wasn't joking. Really sad, but yeah.

I guess all I'm tryin to say is, don't sum up the whole group by the guys you see on TV.
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[balistic]

Your parents are wise (though it probably didn't seem that way when you were young ).
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[Jimmyjimjim]

What I think is sad is the fact that so many religions seem to have lost the original message of thier respective faiths (generally speaking: respecting your fellow humans, helping your brothers and sisters and being a better person). In turn, selected loudmouths and egomaniacs have disected the texts and lessons and twisted them around political and personal agendas which the sheep follow blindly.

[Gort]

Interesting and well place perspectives all about here.

"Islam is just being used as a tool by the extremists to gain power and reason for their intentions and actions"

I tend to think that this is a cause. It's been argued that Syria and Iran intentionally inflamed the argument with the intent of showing how "offensive" the concept of democracy can be to religion (in this case, Islam); their motives are directed solely at Iraq and western initiatives to instill the concepts of democracy and tolerance there. The end result? We saw protestors in England holding signs that read, "to hell with democracy". In part they succeeded, but perhaps they also failed; I have hope in the intellectual capacities of all peoples of the world, and I refuse to pass judgement on the collective Muslim body because of the ignorant actions of others. I have hope.

Annisahmad, you serve as a model of respect. Thanks.
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- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[[Shizo]]

annishamad is my boy yo!

In my opinion, most religions (especially the old ones) have been made to get control over people, or to bring them together in a group. After that is done, people in charge can use religion to make these groups do whatever they want! Not only muslim extrimists do this, christian extremists like Bush do that too! "Let's bomb the sh*t out of Iraq! God bless America!" hehe.

Kinda sad though..

[Ranath]

annis, I just gotta ask, why have you read Quran like 20 times if you don't believe in any god? I wouldn't open my Bible once unless I really believed in it you know...


I didn't mean that all muslims would be like what I said in my previous post, there's always some people who I guess can be manipulated to do that..

I read from a Finnish newspaper an interview of Egyptian muslim family, who told their feelings regarding the cartoons. They seemed pretty decent and intelligent, they didn't like the cartoons but they didn't like the riots either. However, they said also: "Everything would be fine if the westerns would quit the violence", while all the violence in this case was the riots and burning of embassies.

[Mikko K]

I think if the Muslim people in the Middle East actually had more wealth and education, they wouldn't be rioting like that. It's all political. The leaders of Arab countries are using these cartoons to their own benefit.. the more the people are focused on hating the west, the less they see the real problems..

[Naeem]

Gort> Thanks . I guess no one has surpassed peer pressure after all (talking about the muslims who gather in streets, putting flags on fire, etc). The other muslims you see on tv; they lost their individuality in a group. Instead of individuals, they've become a mob, and their identity becomes the mob's identity. I think democracy is very important to religion. It gives people choice. Why follow faith blindly, and be told what to do? That's not the purpose of religion; is it? You're supposed to be at peace with yourself, and know for yourself that what you believe in REALLY exists. These tyrants, like the leader of Iran, denounce democracy because it undermines their 'cause', which is to suppress the people and rule untouched. THat is clearly the mark of any tyrant. Take away their own democracy, and their choice, and watch them whine and cry.

balistic> heh. I always had deep respect for my parents. I got into one minor fight when I was about eight with my cousin. And that was a catfight over a toy. That's pretty much the only fight I've been in through the course of my life.

Jimmy> yep. exactly.

Shizo> . yeah, it's sad. But I don't think it will stop happening.

Ranath> . I've read the quran. Past tense; heh. I only recently came to the conclusion that there is one god, but he's just a source of power that the universe feeds off of. That he's much wiser then to send me to hell for cheating on a test in 8th grade, or for cursing, or for questioning him for that matter. Because it's my nature. Yes, I know not to cross the line, and I won't do these things on a grand scale, and start cheating people left and right.

Mikko K> That's it. I've lived under those circumstance up to the age of 11. In Pakistan, I had lived in a village before coming to the US. Not many people had the luxury of a TV for two reasons; the power would usually go out for hours or days in the summer, and the other being that they didnt have enough money. I was lucky enough that my father was already in the US, workign hard to get me a good education and not let me feel deprived. Almost every single one of the elders in the village had barely any education (30 and above). My father, for one, was educated up to about 7th grade, after which he quit for a reason too complicated and long to state here. My mother graduated highschool, wanted to go to college, but my grandfather refused because my grandmother had passed away when she was in 6th grade, and he had the responsiblity of 6 daughters on his head, my mother being the youngest. He had begun marrying off the oldest, and once my mother graduated, he married her with my father. Thenew generation was struggling. Some wanted an education, but because their parents barely had any education, they had to help them with the farm, or complicated situations arose. So, in the end, they've fallen victim to the same thing their parents fell to. And the cycle continues, but breaks slowly. Anyhow, these people that have not been educated, have not had their minds develop as much as the ones that have been educated. They don't have a voice, and they do what they're told to because they're told it's the right thing to do. THe 'enemy' is defined for them. I guess it's not that bad in Pakistan, as it is in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran and so on. But it's not far off either.
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[Nilwort]

[balistic]

Well, not too much like Gandhi. He seriously hated black people.
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[Nilwort]

Maybe you're right Balistic. Scratch Gandhi off the list and add Ronald McDonald.

Here's a pic of him getting arrested at a civil rights rally (Very spirited man):

[balistic]

He was framed! The Hamburglar did it!
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[Jimmyjimjim]

[eyewoo]

found via googling...

Gandhi branded racist in Johannesburg

[Yarik]

Ghandi is evil. His wife was dying, and he refused to allow her medicing to save her life. he said something like "if it is Gods will to save her, than he will" She died. a little later he got sick, and guess what? he took some medicine and got all better.

Cool guy huh?


I think it goes deeper than religion. If you go deep down the rabit hole you come to the root of all things evil
"Power through force." or "Controlling people."

None of these leaders, who lead by force, care a drop of water for the human kind or their country for that matter. They are all for one thing, and one thing only. Control. Power. Greed.
They tell you, that you are evil and vile. they tell you that pursuit if happiness is from the devil. They tell you that you sinned from birth. They make you completly guilty of all things natural to a human being. They shame you of all things good.

They call everything evil, and their way good. They make you believe that if you don't believe in a God that is all powerfull, that you will burn in eternal flame. And once they got you feeling ashamed of you, they trap you. They take control of you. They manipulate you, use you and throw you out like the piece of trash they made you out to be. YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A SLAVE TO THEM. They see that the human mind has potential, and block that idea out intentionally. They want to control you.

For so whoever speaks to you of self sacrifice, speaks to you of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master. Run from these people like the wind.

[Jimmyjimjim]

Damn!

I hate Ghandi now. I feel like finding Ben Kingsley and kicking his ass!

[eyewoo]

Yarik... yeah... religion does seem to be a human construct and therefore subject to humanity and all its foibles, the very good , the bad and the very ugly.

"For so whoever speaks to you of self sacrifice, speaks to you of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master. Run from these people like the wind."

Like that writing...
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